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Post by Gordis on Sept 27, 2007 16:13:27 GMT
Here we can discuss the future events at Amon Sul.
So, we have a lot of Cardolani characters played by Duilin, All the Arthedain guys and ladies played by Valandil, Gimilbeth played by myself, Barund who is again Val's, Serenoli's Hurgon and the Dwarves - do the latter plan to go to Amon Sul?, Rian's Elves and Callon... Forgotten anybody?
So, at Amon Sul we have no characters played by Angmar, Earniel and Elfhild. I think it would be great if they also pick at least a character each. I think that at least Calafornien and Beleg's mom deserve their own minders. Maybe also some of the extensive Cardolan delegation.
Then there will be the warden of the Palantir to play.
Ideas? Any takers?
Then I am a bit uncertain what fraction of Cardolan delegation Gimilbeth is likely to side with. On one hand, she should naturally support Galphant's claim - it is similar to her own potential one. On the other hand, she wants military support from Malvegil ...
I am not sure, though, whether Rhudaur's opinion matters at all. What do you think, Val - was there a clause there somewhere at the division of Arnor stating that the important matters of the use of the Palanrtir, or of succession, should be decided jointly by the representatives of the 3 kingdoms?
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Post by Duilin on Sept 28, 2007 11:59:17 GMT
I would be happy to give away most of the Cardolani characters I've created. I'd like to keep Belecthor and Galphant, in addition to Duilin and Thurisind, but the rest are fair game. And if anyone wants to make Hador, Adrahil, or Amdír a secret agent of the Witch King, I'm okay with that too.
In terms of Gimilbeth's (and, presumably, by default, Rhudaur's) position on the Cardolani dispute, I would suggest that she would probably try to keep her options open, and that threats of Rhudaurian support for Galphant would make for fair leverage in trying to get Malvegil's support. (The threat of Rhudaur falling into the hands of Broggha would probably be rather better leverage, but you take everything you can get).
And if things go badly with Malvegil (or, I guess, Celebrindol?) she might move more seriously towards that option, especially if Galphant was willing to offer some help in return for Rhudaur's situation.
Whether he actually has the means to do so would be questionable, of course.
One thing that strikes me about the way the world has been developed (and perhaps this is because I've spent the last two weeks reading through nineteenth century diplomatic correspondence) is the complete lack of any kind of permanent diplomatic representation, in Rhudaur at least. One of the members of Rhudaur's council is essentially an agent of Arthedain, and I guess I've done the same with members of Cardolan's council, but there's no formal representation, where you send one of your own nobles as an accredited ambassador to the other court. Nor does there seem to be any direct contact with Gondor besides through the Palatníri. This means that contacts between the kingdoms are going to be limited to special missions, and the like, which means that none of the kingdoms will know all that much about the situation in the others, nor what line the others are likely to take as to one's own actions. This is a distinct disadvantage for the conduct of diplomacy.
Beyond that, I'm going to say that I doubt that there was anything very specific about the other kingdoms having consultation rights in succession disputes, etc. But that doesn't mean that the opinion of the other kingdoms is worthless. Obviously, Arthedain's opinion in Cardolan means a great deal.
Rhudaur is obviously much, much weaker, but that doesn't mean that it can't have some impact. It just needs to figure out how it could possibly do so. King Tarnendur issuing a declaration supporting Galphant's claims would be largely worthless, I think.
BTW, it strikes me that Tarnendur's claim to the throne of Cardolan is at least as good, genealogically speaking, as Malvegil's. Both are equally descended from brothers of Caryontar, and one might argue that it should go down the line to the younger brother before going back up to the older brother (this was an actual issue in some real medieval succession disputes, I believe). Of course, there's no political support for such a thing, but someone (i.e. Gimilbeth) might well throw it in there.
Anyway, in terms of my characters, I think Galphant will probably want to get Rhudaur's support, if possible, but that he'll recognize that it's probably largely worthless (unless Gimilbeth can figure out a way to make it useful). So he's going to be focused on dodging Arthedain's people and getting his word in with Gondor, if he can.
In terms of his relations with the Arthedain party, I imagine he will try to be cordial, but distant. I don't know whether Celebrindol might want to take him aside and see if he can get him to abandon his claims. Also, at some point during the stay, he'll probably have to leave to attend to his father's deathbed. He knows his father is in poor health, and will probably die soon, so he's going to want to get his business done as soon as he can.
In terms of the Arthedain agents in the Cardolani delegation, I'm not really sure about Adrahil - I'm leaving his thoughts and motivations open, for the moment, but I think Belecthor is pretty relaxed about the whole thing. Like everyone else, he assumes that no king will b e found in Gondor, so the whole thing is kind of a formality. He'll probably be pleased that the Arthedain and Rhudaur delegations are there, and try to socialize and make friends. Lots of talking to Celebrindol, at least. Adrahil, I think, will spend even more time talking to Celebrindol, and is probably also more wary of Galphant possibly being up to something. Beyond that I'm not sure.
Orogost is going to be mostly focused on the actual talks with Gondorian loremasters, and such, and probably also with attending to correspondence pertaining to the governance of Cardolan. He'll want the whole trip over quickly, so he can return to Harnost and take over management. Might have to leave his son behind if things drag on too long...
Duilin and Thurisind, I'm not exactly sure. I think they will probably not be part of Galphant's official entourage, but will be lodging elsewhere in town, but I'm not certain - they probably need access to the tower, so perhaps Duilin, at least, will pose as a servant (Thurisind is a bit too gigantic and blond to be a plausible servant, I think, although he could pretend to be a groom, or something, I guess - that might put him in contact with Callon). Like Galphant himself, I haven't quite worked out how exactly they're going to be used to help him get access to the Palantir. It'll be figured out in time, I imagine.
So, anyway, those are my thoughts at the moment.
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Post by Gordis on Sept 28, 2007 18:03:41 GMT
Here are some data and observations: 1. Less than a hundred years ago the top Cardolani nobles, including the King Menelcar, were treacherously slaughtered by Rhudaurians. Thus almost everyone in the Cardolani delegation is likely to mourn a close relative, maybe a father, or a grandfather. Therefore, I doubt the Cardolani guys would sympathize with the Rhudaurian delegation much. (Quote from Val: 1249 Menelcar and all his leading nobles were invited to a parley with Rhudaur, where they might decide how to join together and drive Arthedain away from Amon Sul. They were presented with a lavish feast, even for the men-at-arms who accompanied them, but on a signal, each man’s servant (actually warriors in disguise) as well as their other hosts, drew a weapon and slew the entire delegation of Cardolan. Last of all, that he was able to see the destruction of his men, Menelcar was slain by Tarondacil as two men held his arms. And Tarondacil laughed with merriment, delighted at his deception made under pretext of truce... Finally, in 1254, Tarenion father of Tarnendur moved against Tarondacil. His forces prevailed, but he himself was slain by Tarondacil, whom he had mortally wounded.)2. In Val's chronicle I have found out that around 990 Hyarandil, King of Rhudaur, married a daughter of the Lord of Tharbad. Thus Gimilbeth is the fifth cousin of Belecthor - and maybe the Count is proud of this royal connection. Here are some data from HOME XII:
Gondor
Minalcar (Romendacil II) 1126-1366 (221 in 1347)
Valacar 1194-1432 (153 in 1347)
Eldacar 1255-1490 (92 in 1347)
Eldacar's children:
Ornendil b 1310-20(?) - killed 1446 (about 27-37 in 1347)
a daughter b 1320-25(?) (about 22-27 in 1347)
Aldamir 1330-1540 (17 in 1347)
Castamir 1259-1447 (88 in 1347)Notes re: Gimilbeth's matchmaking plans - she can offer Tarniel as a bride for either Ornendil or Aldamir. Both are of suitable age. But the most obvious candidature is of course, Beleg - IF Malvegil and Celebrindor promise military support in the near future. But Gimilbeth may try to get the same promises from Galphant on following terms: Rhudaur supports his claim, Herunarth gets Tarniel and Cardolan provides money and soldiers against the Hillmen. Great idea! *evil grin* ;D Thank you, Duilin. She might try to throw that bomb, you know. At least it will stir the Cardolan delegation and make them take Rhudaur into consideration. I know of even better leverage *evilest grin*  I guess Malvegil is going to promise some help - maybe in a year or two - otherwise Tarniel and Beleg won't be betrothed. But it is up to Val. |
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Post by Duilin on Sept 29, 2007 12:06:27 GMT
Here are some data and observations: 1. Less than a hundred years ago the top Cardolani nobles, including the King Menelcar, were treacherously slaughtered by Rhudaurians. Thus almost everyone in the Cardolani delegation is likely to mourn a close relative, maybe a father, or a grandfather. Therefore, I doubt the Cardolani guys would sympathize with the Rhudaurian delegation much. Certainly they'd have little sympathy with Cardolan, generally speaking. That being said, Gimilbeth and her family were not involved in the massacre, and were, in fact, in exile at the time (no?) so they'd have no reason to be hostile to the royal family, specifically. After all, Tarondacil killed Tarnendur's father just as much as he killed Galphant's and Belecthor's grandfathers. 2. In Val's chronicle I have found out that around 990 Hyarandil, King of Rhudaur, married a daughter of the Lord of Tharbad. Thus Gimilbeth is the fifth cousin of Belecthor - and maybe the Count is proud of this royal connection. One would imagine he must have numerous royal connections, but probably this is his only one to the Rhudaurian royal family specifically. One would imagine that he will try to use that to ingratiate himself, if he wishes to ingratiate himself. Notes re: Gimilbeth's matchmaking plans - she can offer Tarniel as a bride for either Ornendil or Aldamir. Both are of suitable age. But the most obvious candidature is of course, Beleg - IF Malvegil and Celebrindor promise military support in the near future. But Gimilbeth may try to get the same promises from Galphant on following terms: Rhudaur supports his claim, Herunarth gets Tarniel and Cardolan provides money and soldiers against the Hillmen. This seems like a fairly mediocre deal for Galphant - "support" from Rhudaur will seem pretty useless, given that the only effective military force Rhudaur has on offer is, er, the very Hillmen that they need help to get rid of. The Princess for his son is more helpful, though, seeing as it's another Isildurian connection for the family. So, I suppose any help he can get is welcome. And while Cardolan may not have many soldiers at the moment, one would imagine it must have a great deal of money - I imagine Orogost has been squirreling it away for decades. There's probably an enormous store of specie that Cardolan could use to raise an army, if it wanted to. Too bad it's in the hands of a neutral party...Amdír might be the key to accessing Cardolan's treasure, since he's a much more political animal than his father. If Orogost can be gotten out of the way, and Amdír gotten to take the Prince's side, then things look pretty good for Galphant's claim to the throne. And then he can raise an army to the succor of Rhudaur, perhaps. Gimilbeth, then, would have to deal with Orogost and Amdír...although I imagine Galphant wouldn't want any information on the details of that help... Glad to help. I imagine you're not going to say any more on that... Yes, preumably - although who knows how much doing it'll take? One thing reading through diplomatic correspondence has taught me is that as much time and energy is usually put into pursuing lines of policy that never end up actually going anywhere, than into those that end up working out. Presumably Malvegil won't be terribly enthusiastic about the deal, initially, because it means he still doesn't get to inherit Rhudaur. He'll see if he can work out a better deal before agreeing, I think. |
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Post by Gordis on Sept 30, 2007 18:14:26 GMT
Certainly they'd have little sympathy with Cardolan, generally speaking. That being said, Gimilbeth and her family were not involved in the massacre, and were, in fact, in exile at the time (no?) so they'd have no reason to be hostile to the royal family, specifically. After all, Tarondacil killed Tarnendur's father just as much as he killed Galphant's and Belecthor's grandfathers. yes, but I think it will be nice to refer to those events during the parley. It will add background and perspective to the story. You are right in thinking that Gimilbeth has little (if at all) to offer. That makes her position even more desperate. I can disclose it.  Something like :if none of you is ready to offer us help against the Barbarians, then Rhudaur has no options left but to seek help ... elsewhere  ... in the North to be precise. Like what? Malvegil can't desinherit Daurendil and Amantir - they are father to son descendants of Dauremir, after all. But considering the incredible mortality rate in the Rhudaurian royal family he might always hope that this line will die out soon. Then with Tarniel kept in safety in Fornost, Beleg's chances to get Rhudaur would be high. |
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Post by Duilin on Sept 30, 2007 18:33:46 GMT
Certainly they'd have little sympathy with Cardolan, generally speaking. That being said, Gimilbeth and her family were not involved in the massacre, and were, in fact, in exile at the time (no?) so they'd have no reason to be hostile to the royal family, specifically. After all, Tarondacil killed Tarnendur's father just as much as he killed Galphant's and Belecthor's grandfathers. yes, but I think it will be nice to refer to those events during the parley. It will add background and perspective to the story. Yes, certainly, especially since Tarnendur brought it up already in the story in his conversation with Eryndil's father. I think that Hador and Orogost, being old timers, would be the most likely to hold grudges over it. You are right in thinking that Gimilbeth has little (if at all) to offer. That makes her position even more desperate. She has ways she could help Galphant, I would imagine, but Galphant wouldn't want help in that way... [ I can disclose it. Something like :if none of you is ready to offer us help against the Barbarians, then Rhudaur has no options left but to seek help ... elsewhere ... in the North to be precise. Indeed...although there would have to be some question in Malvegil's mind if this is really a possibility. Have any of the Dúnedain kingdoms sought to make contact with Angmar yet? The lack of formal diplomacy makes for a lot of ignorance about fairly close neighbors... Like what? Malvegil can't desinherit Daurendil and Amantir - they are father to son descendants of Dauremir, after all. But considering the incredible mortality rate in the Rhudaurian royal family he might always hope that this line will die out soon. Then with Tarniel kept in safety in Fornost, Beleg's chances to get Rhudaur would be high. [/quote] Yes...it is a sensible position, especially since Gimilbeth, who has a stronger claim than Tarniel, is almost certainly going to die childless, at this point. Anyway, much to think about... |
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Post by Serenoli on Sept 30, 2007 19:19:58 GMT
Duilin, if you find that Duilin and Thurisind are having trouble accessing the tower, they can always buy my painter Hurgon Fernik a few drinks (he will be at a loose end in Amon Sul once his painting is done) and befriend him. He is of Gimilbeth's party, and might be able to help them get in.
As for the dwarves, Gordis, they were making for Tharbad, so I suppose they might rest in Amon Sul for a few days. They're much decreased in numbers from the battle and would have wanted to stay with the large numbers of Gimilbeth's party. And once they meet all the Cardolani characters who have passed through Tharbad, they will be eager for news. And I believe Beleg was planning to hire some dwarves for some mithril hunting - if they meet up with Beleg here, then they might stay for some time talking and negotiating with him - what do you say, Val?
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Post by Duilin on Oct 1, 2007 14:15:14 GMT
Hmm....I'm sure Duilin and Thurisind would love to have a drink with Hurgon, although exactly where that will take place might be in question. More broadly speaking, I'm sure Galphant can get them access to the tower in some way. The question is how, exactly. I'm not sure how plausible it is to simply add them to his retinue, since probably Belecthor and Adrahil would know that, at least, a gigantic Northman was not previously in Galphant's service. Duilin would be easier to sneak in. So maybe Duilin will be disguised as a servant, and allowed in, and Thurisind will sit on his heels in the town. Then he could talk with Hurgon. Maybe...
In terms of the Cardolanis, what exactly were the Dwarves going to do in Tharbad? Obviously, Belecthor mostly lives in Tharbad (although he doesn't actually control its government - he merely has a palace there, and presumably is the leading member of aristocratic society in the city), and would probably have some sense of any projects going on there. Duilin and Thurisind went through there, but didn't spend too much time getting to know the place - Duilin was too nervous of Castamir's spies possibly being present there. I'm not sure any of the rest of them have recently been in Tharbad.
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Post by Serenoli on Oct 1, 2007 18:33:16 GMT
Well, as for the dwarves. Part of their tribe is supposed to have reached and settled in Tharbad foir the time being, so they'll be wanting to ask anyone who'd passed through Tharbad whether they had heard any news of them. I haven't really thought about whether they are doing any projects there, but I suppose they very well might be.
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Post by Gordis on Oct 2, 2007 5:58:02 GMT
And don't forget that at this time, Tharbad is the closest to Moria human settlement. Khazad-Dum is at the height of its prosperity, but Drwarves hardly grow their own crops. I have no doubt there are Dwarves to be found in Tharbad at all times - coming to sell gems and weapons, to buy food and other victuals.
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Something like :if none of you is ready to offer us help against the Barbarians, then Rhudaur has no options left but to seek help ... elsewhere 
... in the North to be precise.