Amon Sul planning thread

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Val, really great work here! I will have to agree with Gordis. It is awesome!

[Valandil]

gordis said:

Oh something like: on the right you see the main gate, if you go inside you are in a...
From there three doors open. You can turn left passing through the "inner gate" and enter the main (south-western) courtyard... If you turn right, you are in the south-eastern courtyard. And if you go straight on, you are in a corridor...and so on.

Without it I feel lost... Especially the south wing is difficult. I still think it was unnecessary to make the Gate open directly into it, and not between two wings.


Also: I think I will need to edit this post to fit the new layout.
Please help me with it, Val ... My changes are in red - please correct and add what is necessary. Are there stairs to take on their way?

= = = = =


It was mid-morning when Gimilbeth, followed by the inevitable Barund, gingerly made her way out of the palace onto the pristinely white south-eastern court of Amon Sul - at the third floor terrace level. There was a storm last night, and now most of the expanse of the square was covered with knee-deep snow; only narrow paths were cleared between the main buildings. At the edges of the paths, the banks of snow were waist-high and the rare persons who ventured outside seemed to float like ships in a white sea. And it was still snowing… Decidedly, Gimilbeth thought, her party made it to shelter in the nick of time.
[...]
Gimilbeth gathered her fur mantle tighter about herself to ward off the chill and started walking towards the Tower south wing of the fortress. Barund strode in taw tow.

They followed the path to the tower vaulted passage beneath the south wing and emerged in on the south-western court terrace. There they turned into wide lane leading to the main entrance, when they saw Annundil and his son Nonentir engaged in conversation by the main towet stairs tower entrance. Both seemed grim and preoccupied. The warden looked up and nodded to Gimilbeth. They approached.

= = = = =

Gordis - I made further strike-outs and changes or adds in Maroon.

and PS: it isn't necessary for them to even GO outside - but I figured maybe they wanted a breath of fresh air. Or even to be free from any potential prying ears.

It might also be possible (I'm still working out the arrangements in my head) - that they step outside on the third floor southeast terrace and cross through the south wing to the southwest terrace (as you describe) - but look up to see Annundil and Nonendir two levels above them - on the ramparts of the west wing. They could duck inside to take a stair up to that level - or even give a "Yoo-hoo... hello up there" before going up to join them. The secured entrance to the tower would be no lower than that level (essentially the fifth) - and it would be possible to freely pass up TO that point.

Angmar - thank you!

[Gordis]

Ok, edited, thanks Val.

[Valandil]

Duilin:

I have posted my Chronicle of Northern Kings in the fanfic subforum. It's a version I have slightly altered to fit in better with the game - and may still need a little more tweaking for that purpose.

I hope that's helpful - if you can wade through it all.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Val, good job. Both helpful and interesting.

[Valandil]

Aha! Found it!

Dec 21, 2007 2:35:37 GMT Valandil said:

I've thought of something that may help.

Long ago I sort of invented the term "Peace of Amlaith" to suggest an agreement by which Amlaith first agreed to concede parts of Arnor to his brothers in a peaceful manner - and laid out conditions for that division and that peace.

Now - this game more and more seems to have the need for definition of just what those conditions were - so I think I'll draft the document.

I would appreciate help / feedback / etc. For starters, I think the document should include:

[shadow=blue,left,300]The Peace of Amlaith:[/shadow]

1. A statement of who the three sons of Earendur are, and that they all hereby agree to the following.
2. That the Kingdom of Arnor shall henceforth be divided among them, with the separate parts descending to their separate heirs.
3. That the boundaries be... (we can about take this part right out of Appendix A - noting which brother gets which part).
4. That while Annuminas lies within the realm of Arthedain, it is not to be the capitol of that Kingdom.
5. That Arthedain retains sole use of the Palantir of Annuminas.
6. That the Palantir of Amon Sul is to be shared among the three Kingdoms, and available for use by any of the three at their desire.
7. That the Kingdoms shall not make war on one another, but will assist each other in defending against outside enemies.
8. (Some provision for peaceful travel and free commerce being allowed - with some maximum of armed men from another Kingdom that must be allowed to pass freely - perhaps 20 in a single group?)
9. (A provision for upkeep of shared roads and bridges - for instance, the East-West Road is shared between Arthedain and Cardolan from Stonebows to Amon Sul - and between Rhudaur and Cardolan from Amon Sul to the Mitheithel.)
10. Other provisions... What else would be good to include? Twelve points might be a nice number - or just ten since the Numenoreans seemed to do things by tens according to UT. Maybe there should be something about the use of ports or something. Maybe a resolution to meet at regular intervals (yearly? each five or ten years?) Maybe the continued support of a combined system of higher education (ie, the University of Southern Arnor at Tharbad ). Anyway - the attempt was to set things up so they could live in peace together. It just didn't work out that way.

So Provision 6 would give the Cardolan delegation half a leg to stand on - although in many ways, this agreement has not been in effect since warfare broke out among the kingdoms, and Arthedain may not be inclined to honor it too broadly now. Cardolan is also an interesting problem, because there's really no King - no descendant of the man who signed the agreement. However - as we've said, Malvegil wants to make overtures, and he may just let them all have some limited use of it (maybe first he'll be hesitant, but be won over for some reason). Then - it might just be a matter of Galphant being somewhat misleading about exactly what he's doing with it. Since there will be so many users, and so many 'practicing' - they might get a little time to themselves up there, once they get the hang of it, and gain Annundil's trust - or even Malvegil's.

[Gordis]

Good ideas, Val. The problem is that IMO there should have been a clause what to do if one of the brothers leaves no male descendants... Would his part of Arnor return to the descendants of Amlaith? Or would it be divided between the remaining kingdoms?

Or maybe - there was nothing said about it?


What do you think? Val? Duilin?

[Duilin]

It seems likely to me that there would be an absence of any specific remark about the fate of the throne in the event of extinctions. Likely this is something that none of the brothers would have particularly wanted elaborated on, as they would want to leave their own options open in case it happened. There might be some sort of boiler plate, like that each brother retains his own rights of succession in the event of the extinction of the line of his brothers. So rather than dealing with the matter itself, the treaty is basically kicking the can down the road - whatever rights to succession the brothers had beforehand, they would retain. That leaves it open for them to argue about what rights to succession they had.

That also leaves it ambiguous as to whether or not female succession is allowed, which I think is necessary.

I think we've discussed this a bit before, but I thought I'd go into it again. We really have no evidence for female succession being disallowed in the successor kingdoms until Earnil II succeeds Ondoher in the 20th century.

Here's the evidence we have from that time - Arvedui claims the throne in 1944 based on his descent from Isildur, who had been co-King of Gondor with Anárion, and through his marriage to Ondoher's daughter.

After dismissing Arvedui's claim as heir to Isildur on the basis that Isildur relinquished his claim to Meneldil, and thereafter had none, the Council of Gondor says the following: "In Gondor this heritage [that is, the heritage of Meneldil] is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

To this Arvedui responds (ignoring again the part about his claim as heir to Isildur): "Moreover in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."

Looking at the king lists available, we have no knowledge of whether or not any of the kings of either kingdom had daughters older than the sons who succeeded them. It is unlikely that none would have, which would suggest that this part, at least, of Númenorean law was ignored almost from the beginning. But we have no evidence of any tests of the idea that daughters would have no claim at all before 1944. Every High King of Arnor and King of Arthedain was succeeded by his son.

In Gondor, the following kings prior to the time of our story were not succeeded by their sons:

1. Tarannon Falastur, who was childless
2. Narmacil I, who was childless

So, again, in Gondor, every king has either had a son, or been childless.

Now, on to Val's history of the junior northern kingdoms.

The chronology of Cardolan seems to imply a continuous father to son succession up until Dirion's death. So Cardolan provides no examples of a daughter passed up for an uncle, or what not.

In Rhudaur, it's more complicated, as there were three usurpations. However, Tarnendur's own claim is through his descent from Hyarandil's eldest son. The only opportunity for a daughter to be passed over in Rhudaur (besides daughters of the usurpers who ruled between 1127 and 1254) would be if Emergil had a daughter - as we haven't heard of such a lady, who would be presumably around Gimilbeth's age if she existed, I suppose we can assume he did not.

So while, clearly, elder daughters would almost certainly have been passed over by this time, there's been no instances to adjudicate the question of whether women can ever inherit.

Beyond that, both Arvedui and the Council of Gondor refer entirely to custom as the basis for inheritance, rather than written law. This suggests that there has never been any specific written code in the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile as to how succession works in the absence of sons. And since none of the kings of any of the kingdoms has ever had a daughter but no sons (except for Tarnendur prior to his second marriage - and he tried to make his daughter his heir), the issue would seem to be one open to dispute.

By 1944 however, there had apparently been precedents in both Gondor and Arnor that women cannot succeed. In Arnor, the obvious time for such a precedent is now, when the kings of Arthedain are going to claim both Cardolan and Rhudaur even though there are living descendants in the female line of Caryontar and Dauremir at the time Argeleb does this. In Gondor the time would be less obvious - there's no clear example of a king with a female heir before Ondoher. Telemnar, all of whose children perished in the plague along with him, would be the only possibility that I could see - it's possible he could have had a grandchild, either a girl or the son of one of his daughters, who was passed over in favor of Tarondor. Alternately, the Council of Gondor is stretching the truth - they've never excluded a sole surviving daughter before, and are making up a tradition of excluding females to justify keeping Arvedui out.

So, as a result of this analysis, I propose that the treaty should

a) not make any remark about whether females can succeed. It should say that each brother and his heirs will hold the throne of their respective kingdoms. How exactly you define an "heir" should not be specified.

b) be vague about what happens if the line of one of the kings becomes extinct. As I said above, something along the lines of that each brother maintains his rights to succession to his brothers' realms in the event of the extinction of the brother's line. But nothing specifically on what those rights would be.

That would leave the question of who should succeed to be determined by the process of the common law, as determined by the Council of the Kingdom. Which is, after all, why Orogost wants to look at old precedents in case law. The fact that elder daughters have been passed over in the past would speak against any female's claim, but the fact that this precise situation has never arisen before would make it unclear, and there's obviously the Númenorean precedent for female succession to the throne, as well as the fact that Elendil's own descent from Elros was only through a female line.

Of course, to a certain extent Galphant has already weakened his claims, because if daughters have the right to succeed in the absence of sons, he ought to be king regardless of whether or not there are more junior descendants of Caryontar in Gondor. Presumably he feels that his case is tenuous enough that he doesn't feel he can challenge a male heir of Caryontar, should one be found.

Also left open would be the question of who should succeed if females are excluded. Both brothers retained their rights. But it's not clear whether Amlaith's right should come before Dauremir's or not. Presumably it would have been generally understood that Caryontar would succeed in Arthedain should Amlaith and his line die out. But the other kingdoms would be considerably less clear - does Amlaith's line have a right to succession ahead of the third brother, or do Amlaith's rights come last? In real medieval history, this was sometimes a real question. These issues were often unclear. Precedents would be cited, but ultimately it would come down to the realities of power, not abstract legal claims.

So, anyway - keep it vague enough that everyone can make their preferred case.

[Gordis]

I like your ideas very much...

[Valandil]

I think when I did that first outline, we were just discussing rights to useage of the palantir. ;D

Yes - I think all the particular succession matters should be left vague - mostly unaddressed. For several reasons:

1. The agreement was meant to keep the peace - not to determine succession.
2. IF they started spelling out how succession would work if they and their heirs die off, they place themselves in a precarious position. For instance, "If there are no surviving male descendants of Caryontar, the rights to the throne of Cardolan shall pass to... (a descendant of Amlaith / a descendant of Daurnemir / the Prince of Baranduin / the High Chancellor of Cardolan / whomever)"... don't you see what that's doing? It's inviting the named successor to hold an assassination party! So no - I don't think it works in the interests of the framers of this document to spell out who succeeds to their throne if their line fails. It's asking that potential successor to make sure their line would fail.

I don't think the issue of female succession should be addressed either. It wasn't something these men would be thinking about at the time.