Amon Sul planning thread

[Gordis]

earniel said:

Regarding the palantir use, just throwing out some ideas.

Maybe if Galphant can steal a few minutes during a couple of successive exercise periods, he may have had enough prelimerary conversation to have Romendacil agree to having one longer conversation. That way there only needs to be one moment of illegitimate access to the tower and the Stone. It's this one time that Duilin and Thurisind can come into action for getting into the tower.

Could there be some scaffolding against the tower, perhaps? I...

As for gaining access to the Palantir from outside, I think the best idea is to descend from the roof.

As for arranging the interview, I agree with Earniel that "Galphant can steal a few minutes during a couple of successive exercise periods" to talk with the warden of Osgiliath's palantir.
Alternatively, Galphant may try to bribe Gimilbeth (maybe with some political bargains, maybe even with money or jewels) to ask Romendacil for interview with Galphant at the end of her own interview with the Gondor King. But will Romendacil agree to talk to some obscure Arnorian prince in the dead of night?

Now that I think on it, Gimilbeth has a good reason to help Galphant. If the law of Cardolan is changed in favor of women - primogeniture irrespective of sex- and Romendacil agrees to it, then why not have the same in Rhudaur? And who will then become the Heir to Tarnendur?

[Duilin]

I had thought of Galphant using Gimilbeth to try to get his conversation. He has a fair bit he can offer up front, I think, in terms of money, but if he becomes king, he can offer considerable help to Rhudaur - my sense of Cardolan is that it has a lot of money, and that Orogost's stewardship has led to a rather full treasury - lots of money that could be used to hire reliable mercenaries for Rhudaur.

In terms of rules of inheritance, the issue is somewhat complicated. The usual rule in countries that allow women to succeed is that a younger son succeeds ahead of his older sister. But Númenor very specifically did not have this rule from Tar-Ancalimë's time, onwards - Tar-Telperiën definitely had a younger brother, so there would be a case to be made for Gimilbeth succeeding ahead of Daurendil.

It needn't necessarily be Romendacil himself who speaks to Galphant - Valacar, or the Steward, or some other high official, might be deputized.

[Gordis]

OK, so we have a deal!

[Valandil]

gordis said:

Val, beautiful drawing!

But, about the layout -why did you choose to make a covered passage from the Gate to the tower? If an enemy breaks the gate, then they will be protected from arrows, tar and missiles all the way to the tower door.
I guess it is better to let the Gate open into the inner court - cul-de-sac, where any intruders will be easily exterminated by missiles from all sides and from the tower.

Also, how do people get from one wing into another and from one court into the other, and what entrances are there to the Tower? Only one?
Where are the Kitchens? is there anything between the two walls?


About the high chamber: how do guards get onto the roof? There should be access to the roof, you know.

Gordis - what you say led me to an idea. I didn't think about how to repel those who get past the fortress gate, but what if they come into a chamber which is open to the air and surrounded on all four sides from above? There would be 2-3 passages out there - but they could also be barred, so that anyone trying to break into them would be subject to heavy attack for the duration - and maybe other things to combat them besides just missile attacks from above.

There would be passages through the middle of each wing and around the perimeter, with stairs at each intersection. Not sure where the kitchen (?s) would be - but maybe the main one would be good to have in the north wing, on the third level. If it was all stone (including the floor above - it should be pretty safe, right? Plus - that could warm the constantly occupied floor above - and it's on the same floor as the Dining Hall. Alternately, it could be just one more level down - and maybe in the tower base (I think the tower itself would have a separate entrance from the more public rooms of the tower base - you would have to be at the 4th level of the rest to enter the door to the tower proper).

I don't think the roof needs to be accessed - except for an occasional repair. In those cases, the Palantir would be shrouded, and guards posted while the workmen did what they needed to do.

I think there WOULD be a pub or two - almost literally a 'whole in the wall' type place. This version of Amon Sul Might be partly a big castle, and partly a small town. Otherwise, it could be just ALL a big castle and any drinking is done in kitchens and common rooms, etc. What do you think?

[Gordis]

I think it was mostly a castle ... but no shops? No place to buy wine? Not a single pub for civils to sit in the evening?

"There would be passages through the middle of each wing and around the perimeter, with stairs at each intersection."

Yes, but is there an inner corridor (on the 3 level?) circling the base of the tower and connecting all wings - as it was on my plan?
Suppose Gimilbeth wants to go from her room to the Tower Hall - is it necessary to put on a fur coat and boots and go around the Tower to enter it - or is there an inner way into the tower? Also, for instance Hurgon wants to go to the kitchen - so again go outside?

[Duilin]

Perhaps a small village has grown up outside the walls?

[Gordis]

Duilin, I would think it likely - a small settlement betreen the big wall and the outer wall, with a pub, a few shops, maybe even a brothel ... no, maybe not that one .

Anyway some rougher fellows than the elite troops and chosen servants of the fortress had to settle somewhere - those not accepted in the fortress. Maybe also some field hands lived there in winter helping with dirty work in the fortress?

[Valandil]

gordis said:

I think it was mostly a castle ... but no shops? No place to buy wine? Not a single pub for civils to sit in the evening?

"There would be passages through the middle of each wing and around the perimeter, with stairs at each intersection."

Yes, but is there an inner corridor (on the 3 level?) circling the base of the tower and connecting all wings - as it was on my plan?
Suppose Gimilbeth wants to go from her room to the Tower Hall - is it necessary to put on a fur coat and boots and go around the Tower to enter it - or is there an inner way into the tower? Also, for instance Hurgon wants to go to the kitchen - so again go outside?

Gordis:

1. For the fortress itself - once you're inside, the idea is that you can go to any other place in it, staying inside the whole way. There are corridors at each level around the perimeter circle (with rooms to each side of them) and corridors down the middle of each wing at (pretty much) each level - mostly with rooms to each side of them. The only one that might be different is the south wing, but I'm not sure yet just how different. And, each place a wing meets the circle, or the wing comes to the center - the corridors meet, and there are stairs to levels above and below.

I'm going to try to finish another drawing and get it posted by this time tomorrow - which should help you understand what I'm thinking (I hope).

2. The Warden of the Tower is basically like a Count. So... the question just becomes; do all the people of his personal estate (those under him except those who are part of the holding of a Thane who is under him) - do they all live there? If they do, there's really no need for buying and selling, because they are all his subjects, and he's responsible for them. They all basically work 'for the common good' - and the common good includes them - so they are all provided for (although they may not be alloted very much). Only if it's more like a town, with independent shop-owners (who could have long-term leases on their shops, and rent a dwelling room) - would there be a need for buying and selling - and therefore; shops, pubs, etc.

In some ways, the 'town-model' could be more interesting. Sort of like some functions have been 'privatized'.

[Gordis]

OK for the town-model.

So, Val, will there be a shanty-town in between the walls?

Edit: ah, yes, IMO Amon Sul has yet another function: a relay-station for the travellers - like the Dwarves or mercenaries. Those would need to pay for the food and lodgings.

[Duilin]

My understanding of feudal economic systems is that the baron will generally not have total economic control over the lands in his domains. Rather, the peasants who work the lands will have various duties and obligations to the baron - paying various taxes and fees, doing work for the baron on his own private demesne for a certain percentage of the time, that kind of thing. Medieval Europe, at least, would not have had the kind of centralized quasi-collective farming that you seem to imply. Such peasants would not have had much use for a money economy, but they also would not have their well-being directly provided for by the lord, or much sense of the common good.

Arnor, of course, is not medieval Europe, so we should feel free to innovate as to socio-economic systems, if we like. Certainly one can imagine that a Númenorean lord would feel a certain degree of patriarchal munificence for his dependents, but I tend to think they'd still generally be independent economic actors. As far as townishness, Amon Sûl seems like a natural place for a small town to grow up, at least - it's at the intersection of a few roads, and the border of all three kingdoms. There should at least be an inn and some artisanal and merchant establishments, I think, although it needn't be too extensive.