Amon Sul planning thread

[Duilin]

I reposted on the character information thread, as requested, and also added descriptions of Duilin, Thurisind, and Aegnor.

[Valandil]

Thanks Duilin - that will help a lot.

Now I need to catch up on my reading. Then... I've got a few posts I have to write. I'll see if I can get on it all soon.

[Duilin]

I was wondering if we could firm up the layout a bit. Where would our Cardolani guests be staying in relation to the Palantir chamber? Would the Palantír chamber be a floor to itself, or would it be on a floor with other rooms? How many guards would likely be present at any time? Would they be outside the room, only, or inside it as well?

[Agannalo]

Edit: that was I, Gordis

I will tell what I think, but Val may have other ideas.

No guests are staying in the Tower. The exception may be made only for Celebrimbor and Sulawen and their children. (I think if they even stayed in the guesthouse initially, now with the influx of visitors, they would likely be moved into the Tower.)

Gimilbeth and all the Cardolani will stay in the Palace = Guesthouse - a separate building that has two wings - one of the wings is facing East, and Gimilbeth, Barund and Hurgon stay there. The guests may also be squeezed: Hurgon moved to share the room with Barund.

No guests are allowed into the Palantir chamber. Barund who wished to follow Gimilbeth was sent away.

As it has been already described, the Palantir chamber is a floor in itself (High chamber) right under the roof of the Tower.
It can be accessed by a stair leading from the guard room below: doors-stair-another doors - the High chamber.

Normally there are 2 guards in the guard room, but maybe the number will be increased, with so many guests around. In the guardroom there is a huge bell to sound the alarm.

I remember Val wished to make some edits to it: Maybe the guardroom floor will be partitioned to set aside a room for the wardens - to be able to sleep while off duty.

No guards inside the Palantir room, never, but one of the wardens is always there.

[Duilin]

So there would presumably be guards outside the tower, as well as in the guard room. This is going to be a tough nut to crack - maybe an impossible nut to crack. Distraction and main force in the middle of the night might be able to get Galphant a few hours with the Palantír - i.e., if they can disable the guards and the warden without anyone ringing the alarm - but he almost certainly would need several conversations to actually get hold of Rómendacil and secure his support, and if he actually launches an attack, there'd be no chance of that.

In terms of guests - my sense of the situation with Cardolan is that the whole Cardolani delegation has been empowered with the authority of the (vacant) throne, and that nobody really trusts anyone else enough to allow them to be in the chamber alone, at least initially. Will this be a problem?

The other obvious option would be bribery of the guards and night warden. Chances of success for this don't seem terribly great, either.

I had a further question, which is whether the warden is monitoring conversations that other people are having with the Palantír - i.e., is he listening in on what Gimilbeth is saying to Fornost or Osgiliath? In general, can multiple people commune through the Palantír at once?

[Gordis]

duilin said:

So there would presumably be guards outside the tower, as well as in the guard room. This is going to be a tough nut to crack - maybe an impossible nut to crack. Distraction and main force in the middle of the night might be able to get Galphant a few hours with the Palantír - i.e., if they can disable the guards and the warden without anyone ringing the alarm - but he almost certainly would need several conversations to actually get hold of Rómendacil and secure his support, and if he actually launches an attack, there'd be no chance of that.

Maybe Duilin and Galphant could get down into the Palantir chamber from the roof using a rope? I guess there might be another stair leading to the roof but not to the Palantir room.
Then only the guards on top must be disabled and a warden knocked down quietly. Or use a sleeping potion on him?
But the Palantiri store images (not voices) so the image of the one with whom Galphant spoke (Romendacil) will be there.

I think a better idea will be to bribe an assistant-warden into letting Galphant use the stone without other Cardolan guys being present. It is not really high treason... Galphant is allowed to use the stone and it is not the warden's duty to make sure that the rest of the delegation is present - it is Cardolan's internal power struggles.

In terms of guests - my sense of the situation with Cardolan is that the whole Cardolani delegation has been empowered with the authority of the (vacant) throne, and that nobody really trusts anyone else enough to allow them to be in the chamber alone, at least initially. Will this be a problem? In general, can multiple people commune through the Palantír at once?

I don't think it would be a problem - as long as there is enough place on the surface of the stone for everyone's hands.

I had a further question, which is whether the warden is monitoring conversations that other people are having with the Palantír - i.e., is he listening in on what Gimilbeth is saying to Fornost or Osgiliath?

I don't think the Warden will listen to the conversation between Malvegil and Gimilbeth - it would be eavesdropping on his King. But I guess he might remain in the chamber.
As for Osgiliath... hmm... What do you think? Will the Warden listen?

[Valandil]

Well - it is SO hard to make promises these days, but I'm going to try, really, REALLY hard to get some pictures up soon after Christmas - so maybe within a week. If I can't do them up real nice, I'll scan and post my doodles, so you can get the idea of what I'm thinking.

I can't imagine any way up to the High Chamber except the one passage. Really - why would they build it that way? To allow for someone to sneak up there and use the Palantir? ;D We may just have to come up with something else - and I'll try to help.

It's hard to imagine bribery working, because there are really so few who could assure them admittance, no one person could do it alone, and they would be a really tight-knit group. And... if they took a bribe and it was discovered (you can be assured there would be an investigation if the least hint leaked out) - you know the results would be disastrous! And it would be pretty 'open-and-shut'... "OK, what time did it happen? Alright... who was on duty then? Well, would you like to explain it to us?"

Multiple people: I'm guessing that maybe two, possibly three, could operate a single stone - but only in one direction, and often with one training and guiding the other (when Gordis wrote her Gimilbeth part, and Annundil is 'helping' her see through it, I couldn't help but imagining a guy teaching a girl to putt with a golf club... standing behind her, right up against her , moving her arms with his, etc ;D )

So my guess - and I have to say it's only a guess, is that if two people use it, it's still only being used for one purpose - ie, communication with one stone at the other end, or observation of one place. Does that seem reasonable to the rest of you?

[Valandil]

I've thought of something that may help.

Long ago I sort of invented the term "Peace of Amlaith" to suggest an agreement by which Amlaith first agreed to concede parts of Arnor to his brothers in a peaceful manner - and laid out conditions for that division and that peace.

Now - this game more and more seems to have the need for definition of just what those conditions were - so I think I'll draft the document.

I would appreciate help / feedback / etc. For starters, I think the document should include:

[shadow=blue,left,300]The Peace of Amlaith:[/shadow]

1. A statement of who the three sons of Earendur are, and that they all hereby agree to the following.
2. That the Kingdom of Arnor shall henceforth be divided among them, with the separate parts descending to their separate heirs.
3. That the boundaries be... (we can about take this part right out of Appendix A - noting which brother gets which part).
4. That while Annuminas lies within the realm of Arthedain, it is not to be the capitol of that Kingdom.
5. That Arthedain retains sole use of the Palantir of Annuminas.
6. That the Palantir of Amon Sul is to be shared among the three Kingdoms, and available for use by any of the three at their desire.
7. That the Kingdoms shall not make war on one another, but will assist each other in defending against outside enemies.
8. (Some provision for peaceful travel and free commerce being allowed - with some maximum of armed men from another Kingdom that must be allowed to pass freely - perhaps 20 in a single group?)
9. (A provision for upkeep of shared roads and bridges - for instance, the East-West Road is shared between Arthedain and Cardolan from Stonebows to Amon Sul - and between Rhudaur and Cardolan from Amon Sul to the Mitheithel.)
10. Other provisions... What else would be good to include? Twelve points might be a nice number - or just ten since the Numenoreans seemed to do things by tens according to UT. Maybe there should be something about the use of ports or something. Maybe a resolution to meet at regular intervals (yearly? each five or ten years?) Maybe the continued support of a combined system of higher education (ie, the University of Southern Arnor at Tharbad ). Anyway - the attempt was to set things up so they could live in peace together. It just didn't work out that way.

So Provision 6 would give the Cardolan delegation half a leg to stand on - although in many ways, this agreement has not been in effect since warfare broke out among the kingdoms, and Arthedain may not be inclined to honor it too broadly now. Cardolan is also an interesting problem, because there's really no King - no descendant of the man who signed the agreement. However - as we've said, Malvegil wants to make overtures, and he may just let them all have some limited use of it (maybe first he'll be hesitant, but be won over for some reason). Then - it might just be a matter of Galphant being somewhat misleading about exactly what he's doing with it. Since there will be so many users, and so many 'practicing' - they might get a little time to themselves up there, once they get the hang of it, and gain Annundil's trust - or even Malvegil's.

[Valandil]

Second thought on something I've said before.

Maybe the Palantir would NOT be staffed 24/7.

It needs enough light to see at the point where it is observing. It might make sense that most of the observation happens in daytime hours. It COULD happen at night, if it isn't a very dark night - but since they can see so far, it may be best just to take the night off. Especially if not at open war. Communication could happen after dark - and there might even be a regular time for a 'check-in' with the former Annuminas stone now at Fornost. Maybe a routine 'two hours after sunset' or something.

This method also gives very short shifts in winter, and very LONG shifts in summer - especially so far north!

There MIGHT be occasional contact with Gondor. However - here's another possibility for Galphant to establish some contact down there.

In addition to 'observation practice', the new users are granted some 'communication practice' - to be conducted with someone at Fornost. Maybe Galphant, once he gets the hang of it, starts saying to Fornost... "Well, it's late, and this sure tires me out... I think I'll get to sleep... good night Fornost!" After a suitable pause, he turns around and sees what's happening in the southland! ;D He might have to share the privilege, so maybe he gets some time every third or fourth night, after the 'routine check-in'. If he happens to make some contact down there, he could set up later meetings on the appropriate night.

I guess it would be like surfing the internet, hoping to get a lucky hit!

Does all this sound plausible? Did I solve your problem well enough for you? (since I WAS so much of the problem!)

[Gordis]

valandil said:

I can't imagine any way up to the High Chamber except the one passage. Really - why would they build it that way? To allow for someone to sneak up there and use the Palantir?

But how would the access to the roof be effected? I don't think it goes via the palantir chamber. I think the long main spiral stair (that everyone was taking) continues all the way to the roof, while to get to the High Chamber, one has to stop at the one-but-last level (the guard-room) and pass through it and take another stair leading only from the guardroom to the Palantir chamber. The Palantir chamber has no direct access to the Main spiral stair. Makes sense?

However I agree that it would be hard / impossible to get free time at the stone anyway.
Maybe Galphant should just ask the Warden Annundil for a private conference with Malvegil (in secret from the other Cardolani guys). This I think the Warden will be obliged to relay to Fornost. If Malvegil grants the audience, in strict privacy, then maybe Galphant could steal the following 10 min (after saying good-bye to Malvegil) to speak to Romendacil as well?

It's hard to imagine bribery working, because there are really so few who could assure them admittance, no one person could do it alone, and they would be a really tight-knit group. And... if they took a bribe and it was discovered (you can be assured there would be an investigation if the least hint leaked out) - you know the results would be disastrous! And it would be pretty 'open-and-shut'... "OK, what time did it happen? Alright... who was on duty then? Well, would you like to explain it to us?"

True. And the image will be stored anyway, if not the voice.

So my guess - and I have to say it's only a guess, is that if two people use it, it's still only being used for one purpose - ie, communication with one stone at the other end, or observation of one place. Does that seem reasonable to the rest of you?

As for observation - yes, I guess no more than 2-3 people at once, one observing, the 2 others looking over his shoulder without touching the stone.

As for communication, I see it this way - The Warden establishes contact with Fornost's warden or Osgiliath's warden. Then the distant warden sedes his place to the King (the King puts his hands on the Stone, the Warden takes his hands away).

In Amon Sul high chamber all those authorized to listen put their hands on the stone, but they just listen, not direct the stone or speak. Likely they don't even see the picture - those looking the wrong way. The one in charge (maybe always Annundil - or Orogost or Galphant) maintains the contact. And only one (or two) do the actual talking from this side.

The peace of Amlaith - very nice, Val, but please give more of #2- it is the crucial one here. There should be said somewhere that Almaith sedes his right to the respective lands to his brothers and their descendants and won't claim them as long as the respective lines survive.

Maybe the Palantir would NOT be staffed 24/7

It will not be in use 24/7, for sure, but I think it will NEVER be left unattended. Someone must stay in the same room - because any time the stone might light up and an urgent message be relayed from Fornost or Osgiliath. (Not that it happens often in times of peace). I don't think the Palantir rings like a phone, so the warden can't sleep in the next room.