Cardolan problem

[Valandil]

Here are some possibilities:

1. Well... Cardolan didn't make it, did they? ;D (poor defensive work planning?)
2. I think the dike was more guarding a border than a particular fortress.
3. Go back even a little further in the section you're quoting - before they come to the dike: I think the "northern gap" you mention at the first is in a wall - and Frodo is looking for, but doesn't see, the "great stones standing like a gate", which he had seen before getting trapped by the wight. The configuration of this part is all unclear, but of necessity in the story, because it had been foggy, and getting dark, and now they were apparently going out a different way (maybe the gate was no longer a way "out"?).

[Serenoli]

Fascinating thread, yet I only stumbled upon it now. Its a good thing I did, for I was starting to be puzzled by Duilin's posts. By the way, I had a question. Me being rather obscure about the history of the times, someone needs to enlighten me - who is ruling in Gondor at this instant in time? They'll be pretty much involved, or at least a little bit, in the Amun Sul thread, seeing as there are two parties rushing off to ask them for help - and I wanted to get some idea of who they are, or whether their characters have been fleshed out or not.

[Valandil]

Serenoli - Romendacil II is ruling Gondor during the time of our game. I posted a little about him and other future kings who are now alive in the "Welcome" thread, as part of a discussion with Duilin - the very bottom of page 2. I need to find the other information I was talking about and maybe re-post the thing as a separate thread in our "Planning" forum - so it's there for easy reference.

Duilin - one thing I thought I'd mention. You asked earlier when the Arthedain group arrives at Amon Sul. As I said, they'll be there when the others come. They just don't know that the others are coming... they think they're going for a wintertime family visit. But... I suppose the Rhudaur and Cardolan delegations won't expect to see the Heir of Arthedain and his family there (and maybe some other folks as well ) either.

[Gordis]

Then that begs the question how the Cardolani guys (and Gimilbeth for that matter) could be sure that they would be allowed to use the Palantir.

Tarnendur at least, as Isildur's descendant, and Gimilbeth, as his official representative, could hope to get access to the Palantir without Malvegil's special permission - but the Cardolani? I would guess they should have gone to Fornost first to beg this boon from Malvegil. Also, Cardolan borders on Gondor. Why not send an ambassador there without going to Arthedain - that would surely oppose their plans - and use the Palantir under their very nose?

[Duilin]

Gordis - two possibilites

1) Malvegil is treating the Cardolanis with kid gloves, and has already approved some sort of delegation to consult with Gondor. Presumably, Malvegil does not believe that any possible heirs will be found in Gondor (as indeed they will not be), and hopes that a display of reasonableness will help him with the Council of Cardolan once they realize their quest is fruitless. Treating Cardolan's leading nobles disrespectfully is surely not the best way to win their favor for his own claim. Being generous to what is sure to be a useless task (and Malvegil may already have consulted with Gondor on the very issue of possibly descendants of Caryontar in Gondor, and know it is fruitless) will win him favor he can cash in on later.

2) The Council of Cardolan is acting as the regency of the kingdom in the name of a king to be named later (who may, of course, be Malvegil himself). As such, they are merely exercising Cardolan's long-respected right to use the Palantir at Amon Sûl, in order to determine who the proper heir to the kingdom is. Presumably there are peace treaties between Cardolan and Arthedain, and these allow use of the Palantir to appropriate representatives of the kingdom, including representatives in the absence of an actual king.

Or perhaps some combination of the two - no official permission from Malvegil, but he is being as conciliatory as possible with the Council of Cardolan, and they know he wouldn't dare refuse them permission to use the Palantir. If the Arthedain types try to bar the way to a Cardolani delegation, all they are doing is making Arthedain look worse, and helping make the case for Galaphant's succession, and against Malvegil's.

In terms of messengers rather than Palantir, Tharbad is still a long way from Osgiliath. Using the Palantir allows the highest men in Cardolan to conduct direct diplomacy with Gondor. A messenger sent would be of lower status, and it would be months before anything was known. Furthermore, the factions in Cardolan probably don't trust each other enough to agree on a messenger. Certainly Galaphant and his father don't want any messenger sent who isn't their own man, able to pass along their own private messages to Gondor, and their opponents would be unlikely to accept such a man. The Palantir, then, is the only thing that the factions in Cardolan can agree on.

[Gordis]

Very convincing, Duilin.

[Gordis]

By the way, Val and Duilin - about Herunarth's future wife.

I have nothing against Hendigil, but she is only a younger daughter of a Rhudaurian Thane - soon to be dispossessed and broke.

I think he is much more likely to marry either Beleg's pesky little sister (forgotten her name) or this beautiful Calafornien - once Beleg lets her down.

[Valandil]

Gordis - you might be right... Calafornien might be a good match for Herunarth! And they can meet at Amon Sul... maybe it would stir Beleg's interest in her.

Estelien is Beleg's sister (I had to check ), but Herunarth can't marry her... or Araphor would be marrying his first cousin!

On the discussion Gordis and Duilin have had about use of the Palantir at Amon Sul by Rhudaur and Cardolan - here's how I see it:

* It's not completely defined, but I imagine a "Peace of Amlaith" that determined borders of the three kingdoms and set up other terms of their peaceful coexistence - right at/after the division (sort of when it became "official" - more than just actual). Part of this allowed for three-way shared use of the Palantir at Amon Sul. This was in about 862.
* The way I've written it, Arthedain had no interest in the Palantir at first. Gondor was suspected of playing a role to help the other two brothers split off part of Arnor - so Amlaith had no desire to speak with them - nor did his son Beleg.
* It was soon after Amlaith's death (what's my date - 927? 928?), Cardolan and Rhudaur began to battle over sole use of the Palantir at Amon Sul. Arthedain let them be - and for many long years there was much warfare between the two, with each alternately holding it.
* Eventually, Arthedain got dragged into the fighting between Cardolan and Rhudaur. First one attacked them, later the other (again, I'll have to re-check my history). Finally, Celebrindor (father of Malvegil) got PO'ed, called out his forces and took Amon Sul. By this time, Cardolan and Rhudaur had spent so long destroying one another that neither could put up much resistance to Arthedain, which had been relatively unscathed. I believe I dated this at about 1248 or so...(??)
* At first, Arthedain would not have been inclined to allow Cardolan and Rhudaur to use the Palantir there. However, in recent years... Malvegil has been watching things, making overtures, hoping to restore and reunite all Arnor - and would have adopted a policy of allowing courtesy uses of the stone.

Plausible? Workable? I should add that Arthedain would reasonably want to oversee uses of the stone - especially if they had not been worked out in advance. But... that's something for D&T to get around.

Duilin - I've been swamped lately, but soon I want to wrap up just a couple last posts from "Perilous Journeys" - and then I'll post the opener to the Amon Sul thread. I planned to have the Rhudaur delegation arrive on Nov 12, which is when I planned to date the first post. Should the Cardolan group arrive that same day, soon after (the next) - or already be there? Gordis has in mind that Beleg's father is an old flame ( ) of Gimilbeth! ;D So - there may be some resolution or redefinement of an old relationship that needs to happen. Do we do this in conjunction with D&T's work - or take things one at a time?

[Gordis]

valandil said:

Gordis - you might be right... Calafornien might be a good match for Herunarth! And they can meet at Amon Sul... maybe it would stir Beleg's interest in her.

You mean Herunarth's? Or you mean that once Beleg sees that someone else is interested in Calafornien, his own interest in her quickens as well?
I don't know how Duilin will like it - I think we should leave him the choice of a sweetheart. ;D

Estelien is Beleg's sister (I had to check ), but Herunarth can't marry her... or Araphor would be marrying his first cousin!

Ohh... Good point.

Yes, I agree with your reasoning about the Palantiri, Val.
I guess, if the Amon Sul Warden is uncertain about access permissions, he could always ask his colleague at Fornost to consult the King. And anyway, the first person Gimilbeth is going to contact via the Palantir would be Malvegil himself.

[Duilin]

Hey all. Sorry to have been MIA. I'm kind of out of the country for the next few weeks, and somewhat uncertain of my internet status, so I'm not sure whether or not I'll have time/ability to work on writing for this. Depending on how things go in the next few days, I can rewrite my stuff to make my guys arrive a bit later than the Rhudaurians, which hopefully would work (?).

Anyway, I'm definitely still eager to work on this, but the next few weeks may be difficult. Might be best to start the thread without me, and let me bring in my characters when I have time to really work with them.