Cardolan problem

[Valandil]

Gordis

1. I know that "death" is "gurth", not "gorth" - but that's the derivation suggested by Ruth Noel. I suppose roots of words change a little when they go into actual words - esp with much useage, I think. And... it COULD have been renamed later, but since it was a burial ground, it may have already been called "Barrows of the Dead" even before any fortress was placed in the vicinity.

2. Situated at the fork in the north-south road, my Harnost is actually fairly central in Cardolan, which makes it ideal for a King, I think - and which is why I prefer Duilin's "Option 2" - the King at Harnost, the Prince guarding his northern border for him. Harnost is reasonably close to: Tharbad, Sarn Ford, Bree (with the Andrath on the way), Tyrn Gorthad and not so far from the South Downs. Very central. But by 1409, Tyrn Gorthad would easily be the de facto capitol of the Cardolan province - since there had been no independent King thereof for over 60 years.

3. I don't recall the lady of the brooch being a beauty for the ages, just a fond remembrance by Tom Bombadil. But I'll look it up and check. Besides... who says Hendegil is NOT beautiful? (frankly, I think she MUST be! She just hasn't been paraded forth yet... and remember how Prince D reacted: "who is THIS?") And TB might be remembering her in 1360 - or onwards from there, not necessarily from 1409. ;D I won't insist it be her though, but it could be logical for Herunarth's wife to be the lady of the brooch.

4. I prefer "Galphant" to "Galaphant" - because the latter sounds too much like elephant. I'll work up a few more names for you, Duilin. But as Gordis suggests, we could use Rammastir for the old Prince, Galphant for his heir, and Herunarth for the younger.

[Duilin]

"Galaphant" does sound a bit like "Elephant" (although not nearly so much as "Araphant" which is nearly phonetically identical to "Elephant"), but I think it rolls off the tongue a bit more easily than "Galphant"

I'll generally defer, though - Rammastir, Galphant, Herunarth for the three members of the princely house seems workable.

Harnost nicely mirrors "Fornost", and thus strikes as a fairly good name for a capital.

[Gordis]

OK. Let us go with Harnost for the Kings and Tyrn Gorthad for the Princes.
Who is this Ruth Noel, Val?

But I still prefer Galaphant to Galphant - elephants notwithstanding. The latter, as you know, were called Olifaunts.

Re: the Lady of the brooch. I don't think we will ever get this far, Val, - but still better make an older sister for Galien - then we will have open options between Hendigil and her daughter to choose THE lady of the brooch.

[Valandil]

Gordis - Ruth Noel wrote the reference book that helps me with my names: "The Languages of Middle Earth" Otherwise - I don't really speak Sindarin on my own.

*imagine Valandil hanging around Middle-earth, and when a beautiful Elf maiden comes along, he dives into his baggage and pulls out his little book, desperately looking for how to say, "I love you" in... either Sindarin or Quenya!* ;D

We'll keep things open-ended for now - both on the Lady of the Brooch, and Hendegil's fate - that was just a fleeting thought. But if Herunarth doesn't work out, we might throw her at the future Prince of Fornost. But she might end up scrubbing floors in Tharbad for all we know... if she even makes it out of Rhudaur!

Duilin - yes, not only does "Har/Harn" mean "south" to the "north" of "For/Forn" - but I understand the derivation has to do with left and right hand (respectively) facing West - the direction a good Elf or Faithful Numenorean would face. I mean to do a schematic diagram someday of Elendil's concept of Arnor which plays this up a bit.

[Gordis]

Just made a google search for "Tyrn Gorthad meaning" and came up with this:
www.sf-fandom.com/xoa/authors/white_council/archive_37/

So maybe indeed Gor- came from Cor- that means "round" like in "Corollaire"
and "thad" it seems has something to fo with "two" . Maybe "two" as the "Second Kindred" = the Edain?

Might have meant "Round mounds of the Second Kindred" then.

[Gordis]

Aww... that is what happens when you read too many Cardolan threads.
I have found this:
"That the ditch was on the south side indicates that the fortification was constructed by Arthedain, the last of the successor kingdoms to hold out against Angmar. See Appendix A(iii).

And, indeed, see the Quote from LOTR:
"The dark line they had seen was not a line of trees but a line of bushes growing on the edge of a deep dike with a steep wall on the further side. Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long lime ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much.
They climbed down and out of the dike and through a gap in the wall, and then Tom turned due north, for they had been bearing somewhat to the west. "

Indeed the fortification seems to protect Artedain from Cardolan and not the other way round! Never noticed this before. Thoughts?

[Valandil]

No - I think it clearly protects the south (Cardolan) from the north(Arthedain). For one, it's on Cardolan's side of the road. For another, the hobbits came DOWN from it going onto the road. The defensible ground behind the wall would have been the higher ground.

[Gordis]

I am not sure.

They climbed down into the dike and [up] out of the dike and then through a gap in the wall - so now they are again approximately at the same level they started from. I have increased the size of the quote.

before long they came to the northern gap and rode swiftly through, and the land fell away before them. {...}
They went forward steadily, but they soon saw that the Road was further away than they had imagined. Even without a fog, their sleep at mid-day would have prevented them from reaching it until after nightfall on the day before. The dark line they had seen was not a line of trees but a line of bushes growing on the edge of a deep dike with a steep wall on the further side. Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long lime ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much.
They climbed down and out of the dike and through a gap in the wall, and then Tom turned due north, for they had been bearing somewhat to the west. The land was now open and fairly level, and they quickened their pace, but the sun was already sinking low when at last they saw a line of tall trees ahead, and they knew that they had come back to the Road after many unexpected adventures. They galloped their ponies over the last furlongs, and halted under the long shadows of the trees. They were on the top of a sloping bank, and the Road, now dim as evening drew on, wound away below them. At this point it ran nearly from South-west to North-east, and on their right it fell quickly down into a wide hollow.


They were going North-west from the South east and the succession was
1. long descent from Barrow-Downs
2. line of bushes along the dike
3 deep dike
4. steep wall on its Northern side
5. level ground for many miles
6. steep bank descending to the Great road.

Normally in a fortification a dike should be outside - then the wall inside, not the other way round. Am I wrong?

Also I doubt that the boundary between the Kingdoms could have been the road itself. It is absolutely undefendable and in times of war it wouldn't be usable for either party. I guess the strongest Arthedain has grabbed the road from Cardolan at some point pushing the Cardolani a little way inland and built this fortification to keep them there.

[Valandil]

Well... Tolkien sets the road as the boundary, so that's the best we have to go on.

I still don't get what you're saying about the dike and bank though. The bank may have been there from when the wall was built. But in any case, Tom and the hobbits are going down every time. The steep wall on the north face would definitely be to hold off those from the north.

Perhaps the wall was built back a ways from the road for other reasons - maybe the road on either side was considered "neutral" - or else they didn't want their work to be disturbed by being right on the border.

[Gordis]

I am only saying that in a fortification Wall+Dike the dike should be closer to the enemy and the wall closer to the defenders. Otherwise how defend this wall?