Cardolan problem

[Duilin]

Well, I've written a new post, this time in Bree. Let me know what you think.

Valandil - do you have a name for the Prince, or should I make one up? I'm envisioning a Sindarin name as more likely than a Quenya one. Pending further objections, I think Thurisind and Duilin will likely meet him in the next post or two, and then there'll probably be another Thurisind/Duilin post and at least one post by the prince before everyone reaches Amon Sûl.

[Gordis]

Duilin, I think in Val's original short story we are borrowing from, the future Prince of Cardolan has became one of Beleg's friends and participated in this rescue expedition to Cameth-Brin. Right, Val? I think it will be great to have you play the guy, Duilin.

If you agree, Duilin and Val, I think it is better to make the Prince close to Beleg in age - around 40, or, if you envision him an older man, moreover opposed to Arthedain claim, you can give him a son that would become friends with Beleg.

What do you think?

Edit: I referred to this plotline:
"XVIII Arveleg I
Born 1309, Crowned 1356 (47), Reigned 53 years, Slain 1409 (100)
He was named Beleg at birth, and like his father, changed his name on coming to the throne. In his youth he undertook an adventure. Just before the passing of his grandfather, Arveleg gathered to himself the young heirs to the Princes of both Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad and convinced them to ride with him to seek what they could find out in Rhudaur and if they might save any from the royal or princely houses there."

After the death of Dirion (1345), the Prince of Baranduin made peace with King Malvegil of Arthedain, but it was on the ascension of King Argeleb I (1349) that Cardolan was rejoined together with Arthedain and the Prince of Baranduin was re-invested as the Prince of Cardolan. Only 60 years passed before this line failed, when Angmar invaded in great force and over-ran the Tyrn Gorthad and their prince (son of the prince at the time of Argeleb’s ascension) died in its defense in 1409 (although his infant daughter was rescued and carried into the forests – she was later raised in the court of Arthedain and married King Araphor).

Question to Val: is the Prince of Baranduin the same person as the Prince of Tyrn Gorthad?

[Duilin]

I had envisioned an older, more mature, Prince - probably the father of the younger prince who is (or becomes) Beleg's friend. For one thing, the father of a forty year old Númenorean is unlikely to be dead. For another, I think I'd envision Beleg's friend as rather more sympathetic to Arthedain's claims than I'd like my Prince to be.

So I'm going to suggest the family of the Princes of Baranduin as follows:

1) The Prince - around 100 years old. As I've said before, ambitious. He is the nephew of the last king, and hopes to succeed him, but does not yet have the support.

2) The Dowager Princess - mother of the prince, and a younger sister of King Dirion. about 160 years old, but still vigorous, and quite ambitious for her son.

3) The Princess - around 80 years old. Daughter of some thane or count in Cardolan.

4) the Heir - around 35 years old, son of the Prince and Princess. I'd suggest that he should not yet know Beleg, and should make friends with him over the course of the story, if we're going to go in that direction.

My sense of the situation at the moment is that t he Prince, with a small retinue, has travelled from Tyrn Gorthad and is waiting around at the Forsaken Inn (should it be called the Forsaken Inn in this time period?), having sent his servant back to find some ruffians who will suit his purposes (how exactly Duilin and Thurisind fit into his purposes I haven't figured out yet...er, I mean, I am not ready to reveal). He has, however, used some sort of excuse to tarry on the road, and the rest of the Cardolani delegation has gone ahead of him on the road. This group that's gone ahead might include his son.

I'd love it if others could help me with names (although I think they should be Sindarin) - I'm terrible about coming up with names. I'm also fairly open about the other members of the delegation. I'd suggest characters of the following sorts:

1) a very aged counsellor, probably the chief advisor to Dirion. He takes very seriously the task of finding a possible heir of Caryontar in Gondor. What he wishes to do if no such heir can be found remains unclear.

2) a major counsellor who, like what's his name in Rhudaur, is Arthedain's man. He accompanies the mission in the hope of preventing it from achieving anything, because, in the absence of an heir of Caryontar, reunion with Arthedain is the option with the most political support.

3) Probably there should be one more member of the delegation, although his precise affiliations remain unclear to me.

The basic issue is that a lot of people need to be sent, because nobody on Cardolan's Council trusts each other, and there is no clear leader of it. The Prince is the most powerful man in the kingdom, but I suspect that Counsellor #1 is actually the official head of the regency, and he's not in his best days.

I'll suggest that probably Cardolan's council doesn't have any Angmarian spies (although I would guess that there are some spies among those close to the council members), and that nobody on the council wants to let the matter devolve into civil war. Arthedain wants to get the Prince on board with their rule, not as an enemy, and its supporters in Cardolan understand this. The Prince knows that if it came to a fight against Arthedain, he would lose, and probably has scruples about shedding Dúnadan blood to further his own ambitions, in any event. So they'll plot and hinder and irritate each other, but it won't come to actual violence.

[Gordis]

Sounds good all that, Duilin.
As for names - you should better ask Val for some suggestions.

[Valandil]

Gordis - yes, I'm sure I wasn't totally consistent with references in my history - but the Prince of Baranduin (principality, named for river it used to flank) = the Prince of Tyrn Gorthad (specific location of stronghold).

Names - I agree strongly that we should go with Sindarin. I have a nice book (the Ruth Noel book) that helps me out - I just pick out some suffixes and prefixes and mix & match! ;D

Duilin - Sounds mostly good, but some thoughts to toss out:

1. What if we add an upper generation? The current Prince could be quite old - maybe 170 or more, and near his death.
2. His son is about 110 or so - and will be Prince by this time next year. Maybe his father is the biggest obstacle, and this guy has SOME ambitions, but might be won over - especially if he gets a good idea of what's going on in the world.
3. The grandson is 35 or 40, will be Beleg's companion - and will be Prince in 1409.

4. The "Forsaken Inn" would definitely not be forsaken. It probably had some rough years in the time of warfare - or maybe it was established very recently, since things have cooled down. I suppose we need a good name for that as well.

5. I'm hesitant to have any Isildur family ties among Cardolan's greats. For one, JRRT says that there were no descendants of Isildur left in the other kingdoms when Argeleb came to the throne. I have not explicitly excluded daughters marrying into principal families yet - but in my mind I had not been allowing for it. It could have worked the other way - a daughter of the Prince marrying a future King - but I had not planned on the inverse. For a couple reasons, perhaps - both stemming, I think, from how a daughter of both the Princely house of Rhudaur (Beleg marrying Odaragariel) and that of Cardolan (Araphor marrying a daughter of the current 35-40 year old future Prince) will marry into the royal line of Arthedain:

(a) To prevent Arthedain's rulers from marrying a descendent of a "rebel prince" (bad blood? )
(b) In the back of my mind, almost like a "curse" bearing down on the descendants of Caryontar and Daurnemir - for their rebellion against Amlaith and the subsequent weakening of Arnor.

Anyway, these ideas are hardly developed in my mind at all, but I have to admit that they're present.

Another vague idea... is Arnor/Arthedain's rulers or future rulers marrying from families that soon die out. This can be seen as a lingering curse of the Ring, or else, as a positive - that the descent of all these families is preserved in the line of Aragorn. We even see it in the canon characters of Firiel and Arwen. So - I also have it happen with Teleriel (one of my fanfics) and the daughters of these Princes, and there are hints of others in my history too.

Anyway - just some thoughts. I'm hesitant to have any direct connection with Isildur - even through a daughter, but I won't bar it if the rest of you wish to pursue it.

And... I don't think I should get to dictate EVERYTHING around here. I really appreciate how much stock is put in my historical outline, honestly. I just wanted to communicate a bit more of my concept, and see how it strikes the rest of you.

EDIT:

PS: However - maybe Dirion's Queen was my old Prince's sister... or else Dirion's mother was the old Prince's aunt. That may make the old Prince feel like he has as good a claim as anyone, nominal though it is.

[Duilin]

For one, JRRT says that there were no descendants of Isildur left in the other kingdoms when Argeleb came to the throne.

I don't believe he says this, and, indeed, it seems incredibly unlikely, all things considered. I think what Tolkien means is that the male line of Isildur became extinct in Cardolan and Rhudaur, not that there were no descendants of Isildur. It's been 1300 years since Isildur. Obviously Dúnedain generations are longer than normal ones, but that's probably the equivalent of about 400 years of normal human generations. To take a comparable example from real history, by about 400 years after King Edward III of England's death in 1377, not only was virtually all European royalty descended from him, but the vast majority of the English aristocracy was, as well. At the same time, his legitimate male line had become extinct in 1499, and there was only a single bastard male line - that of the Dukes of Beaufort.

Similarly, pretty much the whole of the older nobility of all three kingdoms would have to have some descent from Isildur by this time. IIRC, Tolkien himself suggested that the House of the Stewards was probably descended from Anárion through a female line - it's just that female lines don't count for the succession in the realms in exile. So I think that the Prince of Baranduin should definitely have some sort of genealogical connection to the line of Caryontar - it's almost unbelievable that they would not have intermarried at some point. It could be a more distant connection, though, than I suggested. Perhaps, for instance, one of the earlier princes married the daughter of one of the very early kings of Cardolan.

[Duilin]

Oh, I wanted to add - in terms of an older prince, I don't think I like the idea. Was there a particular motive behind it? My sense of my 100ish prince is that he is ambitious, but not evil. He would like to be king. He thinks his family deserves the honor, and that preserving Cardolan's independence is a worthwhile goal. He is flexible - if he realizes he won't be able to get his way, he'll accept Malvegil. Ultimately, he's going to switch positions and back Malvegil, in exchange for investiture as Prince of Cardolan - i.e., he will have effective control of Cardolan so long as he recognizes Malvegil as King. (The fact that there is a "prince of Cardolan" implies at least some such arrangement, I think). And I agree that as he begins to understand what's going on in Rhudaur, and the threat from Angmar, he's going to become more and more willing to accept Arthedain.

So, anyway, I see the prince as ambitious, but not evil; perhaps slightly cynical, but not ill-intentioned; thoughtful enough to put aside his own ambitions, to some extent, in the face of a common dangerous; and above all, flexible, and ultimately willing to give up the appearance of power, so long as the reality remains in his hands.

[Valandil]

duilin said:

For one, JRRT says that there were no descendants of Isildur left in the other kingdoms when Argeleb came to the throne.

I don't believe he says this, and, indeed, it seems incredibly unlikely, all things considered....

Actually - that was a direct quote out of Appendix A / part iii - so he DID say it! ;D

I think what Tolkien means is that the male line of Isildur became extinct in Cardolan and Rhudaur, not that there were no descendants of Isildur. It's been 1300 years since Isildur. Obviously Dúnedain generations are longer than normal ones, but that's probably the equivalent of about 400 years of normal human generations. To take a comparable example from real history, by about 400 years after King Edward III of England's death in 1377, not only was virtually all European royalty descended from him, but the vast majority of the English aristocracy was, as well. At the same time, his legitimate male line had become extinct in 1499, and there was only a single bastard male line - that of the Dukes of Beaufort.

Similarly, pretty much the whole of the older nobility of all three kingdoms would have to have some descent from Isildur by this time. IIRC, Tolkien himself suggested that the House of the Stewards was probably descended from Anárion through a female line - it's just that female lines don't count for the succession in the realms in exile. So I think that the Prince of Baranduin should definitely have some sort of genealogical connection to the line of Caryontar - it's almost unbelievable that they would not have intermarried at some point. It could be a more distant connection, though, than I suggested. Perhaps, for instance, one of the earlier princes married the daughter of one of the very early kings of Cardolan.

Some good points, Duilin - and if pressed, JRRT might indeed say that he meant the male line of the first Kings of Cardolan and Rhudaur - but he also MIGHT have said that he meant all descendants period of those two kings - even if other descendants of Isildur survived in those lands (ie, descended from Kings of Arnor, before the division).

Also - with all this in mind, I tried intentionally to limit the children of the Kings of C and R - especially in the early generations, so they would not spread widely and get lost track of. Rhudaur went on to have a royal bloodbath in the 1100's and 1200's (in my history) and wiped out a significant chunk of Cardolani nobility in 1249 (also in my fanfic - did you note that one? I suppose nearly every noble house in the land changed hands - so plenty of opportunity for lingering descendants of Caryontar to be slain).

Anyway - that was just my concept. But I think Tolkien even grants some legitimacy to rule by female descendants (by what happens in Numenor, possibly by inference that Andunie was a worthier house than the Royal House of Numenor - even I think by Arvedui's claim he makes because of Firiel - and I think it's important to him that the line of Isildur and Anarion are united in the marriage of Arvedui and Firiel - that it helps give Aragorn claim over Gondor as well as Arnor). And... I'm not inclined to (easily) yield that legitimacy to other houses of Cardolan and Rhudaur. ;D (and I apologize - Gordis will tell you I can get pretty stubborn - but I want to assure you that I always remain good natured about it, if it ever seems otherwise).

[Valandil]

duilin said:

Oh, I wanted to add - in terms of an older prince, I don't think I like the idea. Was there a particular motive behind it? My sense of my 100ish prince is that he is ambitious, but not evil. He would like to be king. He thinks his family deserves the honor, and that preserving Cardolan's independence is a worthwhile goal. He is flexible - if he realizes he won't be able to get his way, he'll accept Malvegil. Ultimately, he's going to switch positions and back Malvegil, in exchange for investiture as Prince of Cardolan - i.e., he will have effective control of Cardolan so long as he recognizes Malvegil as King. (The fact that there is a "prince of Cardolan" implies at least some such arrangement, I think). And I agree that as he begins to understand what's going on in Rhudaur, and the threat from Angmar, he's going to become more and more willing to accept Arthedain.

So, anyway, I see the prince as ambitious, but not evil; perhaps slightly cynical, but not ill-intentioned; thoughtful enough to put aside his own ambitions, to some extent, in the face of a common dangerous; and above all, flexible, and ultimately willing to give up the appearance of power, so long as the reality remains in his hands.

Duilin - how's this twist?: My old Prince stays home. As he knows his life fades, his last hope is to see his son crowned King of Cardolan. The son goes to Amon Sul - and is much as you described: ambitious but not evil, and open to reason. There may even be an unscrupulous advisor along, determined to see the "old man's" plans through.

Word may even come while they are all at Amon Sul that the old man has died...

Anyway: I found some NAMES:

I had already named the young future last Prince: Herunarth, b. 1313 - which makes him 34 now. His future daughter (hmm... should we set him up with Hendegil?) will be Galien, b. 1408.

In his name, the "Heru" means "lord" - he could take that name when he comes into his own, if we want to name him otherwise now. Is it an OK name for a future Prince, or only a present one? (there's no known meaning I'm aware of for "narth" - but JRRT used it in at least one name).

Other names I jotted down, which might go for him, or his father and maybe grandfather (associations being the Baranduin River and the Old Forest):

Duindil: "river-friend"
Galphant: "green-??"
Tauraphant: "forest-??"
Tauragost: "forest-fortress"
Taurassuil: "forest-??"

The "phant" and "ssuil", like "narth" have no meaning I'm aware of - but were used in names in Aragorn's line.

Forsaken Inn:

first I thought: "Friendly Inn"
* Mellonbar
* Mellonmar
* Mellonmardi

but then - and I like this better - I thought "Fireside Inn" - Fireside has more letters in common with "Forsaken" and the name might later receive a joking twist (and in any case, we can use the English name for it's "common" name)

* Barnevnaur ("home-near-fire" - nearest I can make of "fireside inn")

Thoughts?

[Duilin]

Yes - I should have said that I don't think Tolkien meant that there were no descendants, merely no male-line descendants.

It's interesting, though, because, so far as I can tell, the issue of descent through a female line doesn't come up in either of the kingdom we get full king lists of until 1944.

The senior line of Isildur (High Kings-Kings of Arthedain-Chieftains) appears to pass from father to son, with no breaks, for 3000 years.

In Gondor, we have two breaks that I'm aware of, but in both cases there's no female closer to the succession than the male who does succeed. Firstly, Tarannon Falastur is childless. He is succeeded by his brother's son Eärnil I. Secondly, Narmacil I is childless, and is succeeded by his brother Calmacil.

The only other succession dispute before 1944 that we have any clear awareness of is that between Castamir and Eldacar. Castamir's distance from the senior royal line suggests the possibility of intervening female lines (sisters of Valacar). But Castamir is an usurper. For all we know, Valacar had sisters, but they supported their nephew. Alternately, Valacar might not have had any sisters.

Now, back to Cardolan and Rhudaur, of whose royal lines we have almost know information, save that (for certain) the male lines of Isildur in those kingdoms had died out before 1356 (I'm not sure if it's completely clear from Tolkien when in his reign Argeleb I claimed the overall kingship).

I agree that Tolkien himself suggests that female lines have some legitimacy. Among other things, Dior's descent from Thingol comes through his mother, and obviously Elendil's own claim comes through Silmarien. In addition, there are the three reigning queens of Númenor, as well as Tar-Míriel, who was usurped.

That being said, we are left with only one example of attempted female-line succession, and it is completely rejected. Fíriel's claim to the throne of Gondor is ignored. Now, Tolkien thinks this is a bad thing, while he thinks that the reunion of Arnor would be a good thing. But I don't think this has particularly to do with the benefits of one form of succession over another. The issue, I think, is that division of Arnor is a bad thing, and reunification is good. The Prince's claim to be the proper heir to Caryontar might be legitimate, but Caryontar himself was not a legitimate ruler - he was a usurper like Castamir.

Another thought I have on this is that Pelendur must have had some sort of precedent for rejecting Firiel's claim. There were clearly no previous precedents in Gondor. The only kings who had not been succeeded by their sons were kings who didn't have any children at all. So where might a precedent be gotten from?

How about one from a few centuries before that was made by Arthedain itself, and has no come back to bit Arvedui in the ass? That is to say, the Council of Cardolan ultimately determines that the Prince of Baranduin has no right of succession on the basis of his female line descent from Isildur, so long as there are male line descendants of Isildur still about.

It's also worth noting that the Prince's claim is considerably weaker than that of Arvedui, or than that of the queens who ruled Númenor, and even quite possibly weaker than that of Elendil to be heir to Númenor. Arvedui was himself a descendant in the male line of Elendil. The ruling Queens of Númenor had to marry within the House of Elros, in order to ensure t hat the House of Elros would continue to have the rule. And Elendil only claims the kingship after, apparently, all of the male line members of the house of Elros have died in the attack on Númenor (this latter, of course, is not certain - there might be some Black Númenorean members of the House of Elros left in Middle-earth, but we're given no evidence one way or the other on this.)

On the other hand, the Prince of Baranduin, from a lesser house (although almost certainly descended from Elros, I think we can agree?), is claiming the throne when there are perfectly available male-line descendants of Isildur already about in Arthedain.

It seems to me that even if he is Dirion's nephew, his claim still fails to be legitimate on a number of bases, then:

1) the very existence of Cardolan is a mistake - there is absolutely no legitimacy in being the heir of Caryontar. The heir of Amlaith should be the ruler of Cardolan, anyway.

2) Other female line claimants were nonetheless of the same house as the previous ruling house, or else, in the case of Elendil, were from the next highest house in the kingdom, with the previous house being extinct. the Prince of Baranduin is a member of a lesser house, at a time when the previous ruling house still exists outside Cardolan.

Another point I j ust thought of is as follows:

Doesn't the granting of the title of "Prince of Cardolan" suggest some acknowledgement of a claim to Cardolan itself? That is to say, the Prince has absolutely no claim on the title of king. This is because Caryontar had no proper claim on the title of king. Kingship was properly vested in the heirs of Isildur and of Anárion only, not in more junior descendants of each. However, Caryontar's rule over Cardolan was recognized, and that claim can, in fact, pass through a female line, to the Princes of Baranduin.

Changing his title to "Cardolan" might, at least, imply some connection to the dynasty previously ruling Cardolan, and could be seen as a halfway recognition of the Prince's claims as heir-general of Dirion.

In terms of story logic, rather than attempted interpretations of Tolkien (where, I think, it could certainly go either way), I think my main issue is that I want the Prince's claim to be reasonably plausible and strong, but also easily contestable and able to be ultimately rejected without it seeming clearly unjust. A female line descent from Caryontar seems like the best way to achieve this. Obviously, here we are at loggerheads, because you have story reasons for preferring there to be no remaining descendants of Caryontar at all.

And, indeed, I enjoy a good (good-natured) argument, and had no intimations of any ill will here.

It doesn't need to be decided immediately. My next few posts the mind of the Prince will remain elusive, I think - I've got at least two more posts before I'd consider doing one from his POV, and I don't think he'll do very much to explain himself to Duilin and Thurisind in his initial encounter with them.

If you could devise a good name for him and his servant (the guy at the Prancing Pony that we've already met), though, I'd be much obliged. [ETA: Oops, was writing this while you were writing the name post] (A heraldic emblem for his house might be helpful, as well, if anybody is any good with heraldry - my own command of it is bad).