Cardolan problem

[Gordis]

Let us discuss Cardolan situation for 1347 here - as it starts to be important for our game.

Is there a King or not?
Is he a descendant of Isildur?
etc.

Now that is what we can read in Valandil's timeline:

XVII Dirion
Born 1164, Crowned 1249 (85), Reigned 96 years, Died 1345 (179)
Ruled a greatly weakened kingdom, wracked by internal warfare, but clung to it in his pride, rejecting overtures of both King Celebrindor and King Malvegil to unite with Arthedain. His two sons both died young and childless during his reign, in combat with rebellious nobles of Cardolan. Thus his cup was filled with bitterness at the end and with his passing the line of Isildur failed in Cardolan.

After the death of Dirion (1345), the Prince of Baranduin made peace with King Malvegil of Arthedain, but it was on the ascension of King Argeleb I (1349) that Cardolan was rejoined together with Arthedain and the Prince of Baranduin was re-invested as the Prince of Cardolan.


Now what has been already posted in the RPG on the subject.

in "Runnings" chapter 8, Tarnendur said: "The King of Cardolan is old and has little support himself. He cares only for his land, building fortifications along the Great Road and to the South, as far as Tharbad."
King Malvegil of Arthedain, once Tarnendur was dead with no male heirs, would have undoubtedly laid claim to Rhudaur, as he did to Cardolan, in the similar situation.

So it was implied that there was an old King who was not a direct descendant of Isildur.
I am willing to correct that - but we must first agree on what we have in Cardolan.

Have you posted anything about it in the roleplay, Val? - I can't remember.

Also, Val - if we take that the last King has died two years ago and the new Prince will be invested two years after our game - what is there in Cardolan now? How do you see it?

[Valandil]

In Cardolan right now... mostly uncertainty.

Nobody is qualified to step forward and declare themselves King, nobody really WANTS to, because they know it would turn apathy into resentment and maybe bring on conflict (possibly even inviting Arthedain's intervention) - and there's no general acclaim for any particular person to be King.

Malvegil is making overtures to nobles, Arthedain and Cardolan are coming together in Council, and they have a special "project" under way.

Oh - Duilin - between Tharbad and Tyrn Gorthad - right at the fork in the road, where one part goes north to Bree and the other continues northwest to Sarn Ford, I've postulated another city called "Harnost" - not a very large one, but it's there - in case you happen to go by.

Gordis - I don't believe I made the quote by Tarnendur that you mention, and I don't recall it well - though we have discussed what version of Cardolan history we would go with throughout the course of our game.

My vote would be as stated above - a temporary state of relatively peaceful chaos. The nobles handled things locally, but didn't get out of line, because they want to make a good impression on Arthedain.

We can do otherwise. I suggest that if we have a King, he not be a descendant of Isildur. (and would perhaps therefore not be recognized by some Dunedain historians )

[Gordis]

valandil said:

Gordis - I don't believe I made the quote by Tarnendur that you mention, and I don't recall it well - though we have discussed what version of Cardolan history we would go with throughout the course of our game.

It was my quote, from the Runnings - when Gimilbeth talked to Tarnendur.

At the time we still hoped to have Celebrimbor manage Arthedain and he had this King Orodril (?) there - anyway not the rightful one. First I had the name in the text, then edited it out.

So - No King?

If so, I will edit Runnings to : "The old King Dirion had little support himself caring only for his own land and building fortifications along the Great Road and to the South, as far as Tharbad. Since he died, there is no King and likely the land will go to Malvegil."

Does it sound OK?

[Duilin]

One might postulate that the Prince of Baranduin is surely a descendant in female line of Isildur, and may have some ambitions of claiming the throne for himself - surely if the male line of Isildur's second son is extinct, there is nobody else in a better position, besides the outsiders Malvegil and Tarnendur (who obviously has no shot).

But presumably there are many in the kingdom who look to reunion with Arthedain, or at least are not eager to have the overmighty (and overclose) Prince of Baranduin as their master, and would prefer Malvegil if it came down to it. Presumably at this point neither faction is strong enough to carry their will, so we're in a state of suspension. After what happens to Rhudaur, presumably the Prince sees that they will either hang together or hang separately, and makes his peace and accepts Argeleb as King. I'll edit my post to indicate there's no king o f Cardolan - this probably makes it better, since it better explains why mercenaries are being fired - there's nobody to pay them.

Valandil - are your king lists available on the site somewhere?

[Valandil]

duilin said:

:
:
Valandil - are your king lists available on the site somewhere?

Not exactly (YET!) - but there's a link in a thread I bumped. It's at the bottom forum of the index. The thread is about links to fanfics by NK members.

[Duilin]

valandil said:

duilin said:

:
:
Valandil - are your king lists available on the site somewhere?

Not exactly (YET!) - but there's a link in a thread I bumped. It's at the bottom forum of the index. The thread is about links to fanfics by NK members.

Very interesting read, and quite plausible, I think. Tarnendur's history as developed in the story, though, is rather different from your outline.

[Valandil]

duilin said:

valandil said:

Not exactly (YET!) - but there's a link in a thread I bumped. It's at the bottom forum of the index. The thread is about links to fanfics by NK members.

Very interesting read, and quite plausible, I think. Tarnendur's history as developed in the story, though, is rather different from your outline.

Yes - Gordis based her development on Gimilbeth relative to changes that would have been needed in Rhudaur connected with the alternate Cardolan history. So now - it looks like we'll probably go with my Cardolan history, but have a slightly altered Rhudaur history. I'll be sure to work that in when I post the histories here.

[Valandil]

gordis said:

:
:
So - No King?

If so, I will edit Runnings to : "The old King Dirion had little support himself caring only for his own land and building fortifications along the Great Road and to the South, as far as Tharbad. Since he died, there is no King and likely the land will go to Malvegil."

Does it sound OK?

Gordis - I forgot to answer this.

Sounds OK to me.

[Gordis]

So be it, then!

[Valandil]

Duilin and I have had a little discussion about Cardolan, which I suggested we transfer over to this thread for everyone else's perusal, information or input:

- - - - - - -

Duilin:

Hi - I wanted to check with you further on the Cardolan situation, as I was thinking of modifying my earlier story.

Do the Princes of Baranduin live in Tyrn Gorthad? I was thinking of modifying to have the dismissed Cardolan soldiers also suggest the possibility that my characters might get hired from him. Do you have a sense of the character of this prince, or his ambitions?

I was kind of imagining that the situation in Cardolan at present is that it is being ruled by the Council, and that the Prince is one of the most important, if not the most important person on it, but that he doesn't control it, and that there are several pro-Arthedain types in very influential positions at all. The Prince would like to declare himself king of Cardolan (perhaps his mother or wife is a scion of the royal house), but doesn't yet have enough support. I was thinking of the possibility that my characters might take service with him, and that he might then decide, as Regent (or head of the regency council, or whatever) of Cardolan, to also take a trip to Amon Sûl, to see if he can get Gondor's support for a bid for the throne. One might assume also that there is some kind of search effort under way, to see if there are any male members of Cardolan's royal house around. Dirion apparently had no surviving sons, but that doesn't mean that it's completely clear there's nobody - there might be obscure cadets who headed off to Gondor, and the Council might wish to discuss with the south to see if there's any survivors.

My assumption is that little will come of this - Gondor won't support the Prince, and there won't be any pure-blooded members of the royal house, and my characters will then be free to consider further moves from Amon Sûl.

Anyway, I thought I'd check with you about this first, though, since I don't want to muck up anything you've got planned.

- - - - - - - -

Valandil:

Let me finally answer this one now.

I've honestly given Cardolan least thought of the northern lands. The first reason for that is we had a player lined up to take it early on - but that didn't materialize. The second is - I got so hip-deep in Rhudaur that I've been kept hopping (it started out that I was going to take the Arthedain characters, but all this action was happening in Rhudaur, so I introduced a minor character just to keep myself occupied... and it's just taken off!).

Anyway, here's what I think:
* Yes, I think the Princes of Cardolan (er - right now, Princes of Baranduin) live at Tyrn Gorthad.
* I think the current Prince is father, or possibly grandfather (if he's very old), of the last prince of that line who dies in 1409.
* I think the "Cardolan Experiment" is generally considered a failure by all across the land - and most welcome the overtures of Arthedain.
* I don't know about introducing more factions to Amon Sul - but that may be something open to discussion. However...
* In my history, Arthedain has established control over Amon Sul some years before. They would not be too keen on the idea of the prince coming in to ask Gondor for their support in becoming Cardolan's next King.

Let me give it some thought - but maybe your characters should pass on through Harnost (did you see my note on that?), up the Andrath, on to Tyrn Gorthad, Bree and then Amon Sul - all on their own. Maybe after Tyrn Gorthad they intend to try Fornost, but hear about the royal entourage just departed for Amon Sul and decide to go that way instead.

- - - - - - - -

Duilin:

Hmm....well, here's how I see it. Obviously there must be strong figures in Cardolan who are holding up a union with Arthedain for whatever reason. Presumably there are forces within the kingdom who wish to preserve Cardolan as an independent state, or it would not still be in a state of limbo two years after the last king's death. The Prince is an obvious candidate for obstructionism here, since he's surely the most powerful man in the kingdom, and an obvious motive is an interest in his part in taking the kingdom himself.

Now, in terms of the trip to Amon Sûl, I guess my idea is that it would work as such - for the last two years, thanks to the insistence of the Prince, who does not yet have the strength to claim the throne for himself, has been doing a thorough genealogical survey of the royal house of Cardolan, in order to determine if there is a surviving heir of the Cardolani royal house. By now, this search has essentially dead-ended - either nobody could be found, or they were not appropriate candidates. However, there are several lines which are not accounted for, as members of the family went to Gondor and lost touch with their homelands. The ostensible purpose of the journey is to talk to the Gondorians and see if any information can be gathered. Secretly, the Prince also wants to speak to Gondor and see if he can attain any support. He would not, of course, let this be known to the Arthedainian authorities at Amon Sûl. He might even explain to them that this is a last ditch effort, and that should it fail, he will be happy to offer his allegiance to Malvegil. I imagine Arthedain wouldn't particularly like any communication with Gondor aimed towards finding a king for Cardolan other than Malvegil, but they'd have a much harder time preventing use of the Palantir for what is clearly a more legitimate purpose than the Prince trying to secure aid for his own personal bid for the throne.

Certainly the prince would be playing a delicate game here. He can't be seen openly to oppose annexation, because if it does happen, he wants to secure his position as best he can. At the same time, he'd like to be king, if he can.

But if you don't like this, I can ditch it. Let me know what you think.

- - - - - - - -

And that's where I suggested we bring it here - to which Duilin agreed completely.

What do the rest of you think?

I have to admit - part of my own motivation is either laziness / swamped-edness. ;D So - that's not a real good reason to keep something from happening, maybe??

Anyway... discuss.