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Post by Duilin on Sept 6, 2007 1:28:31 GMT
Duilin - how's this twist?: My old Prince stays home. As he knows his life fades, his last hope is to see his son crowned King of Cardolan. The son goes to Amon Sul - and is much as you described: ambitious but not evil, and open to reason. There may even be an unscrupulous advisor along, determined to see the "old man's" plans through. Word may even come while they are all at Amon Sul that the old man has died... I actually like this...the unscrupulous adviser can be the fourth member of the delegation, even. So the delegation would consist of: 1) the head of the Regency, and old man close to Dirion, who is serious in his search for an heir of Caryontar in Gondor 2) Arthedain's man in Cardolan. 3) The heir to the Prince of Baranduin - as I've described. Anticipating coming into his inheritance very soon. 4) another member of the council, a close associate of the old Prince. But unfortunately this makes the delegation a bit imbalanced towards the side of those not sympathetic to Arthedain. Should there be five members of the delegation, with two Arthedain-sympathizers? Anyway, I think I can work with that idea. Of course, the Prince of Cardolan's ambitions for his son, rather than for himself, make a great deal of sense if his wife is a close connection to the royal family  Anyway: I found some NAMES:I had already named the young future last Prince: Herunarth, b. 1313 - which makes him 34 now. His future daughter (hmm... should we set him up with Hendegil?) will be Galien, b. 1408. In his name, the "Heru" means "lord" - he could take that name when he comes into his own, if we want to name him otherwise now. Is it an OK name for a future Prince, or only a present one? (there's no known meaning I'm aware of for "narth" - but JRRT used it in at least one name). "Lord" seems like a loose enough term that it could be used for someone who's not a ruling prince. But it seems likely it would be a standard prefix taken by all members of the princely family, either when they take up their inheritance or from birth. Other names I jotted down, which might go for him, or his father and maybe grandfather (associations being the Baranduin River and the Old Forest): Duindil: "river-friend" This seems rather too close to "Duilin" to work. Galphant: "green-??" Tauraphant: "forest-??" Tauragost: "forest-fortress" Taurassuil: "forest-??" Any of these would be okay with me. Other possibilities would be being named for famous personages of the first age - we know that the stewards of Gondor did it, and so, apparently, did the kings of Arthedain (else how "Beleg"?). There's any number of Silmarillion name possibilities. "Angrod," for instance, has always struck me as a solid name, and nicely short. Maybe I'll give that name to the servant, or to one of the counsellors. I'd think that the inn is a run by a non-Dúnadan, and might not even have a Sindarin name. But "Fireside Inn" is good. |
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Post by Valandil on Sept 6, 2007 2:08:08 GMT
Duilin: some stray answers to a few points across your last couple posts: 1. I think that the descendants of Isildur in Cardolan and Rhudaur were gone by 1349 - not just 1356 - because I think there's significance to the name "Argeleb". (I suspect the claim was made at his ascension) 2. This may shock you - but I'll concede you the point of maternal (or matrimonial) connectivity with the line of Isildur for the Prince of Baranduin - maybe even a brother and sister wed a sister and brother. You make some very good points, which could add lots of interest to the game. And - I've already reconciled myself to keeping variances in the game separate from my own personal established "history" - in my own mind anyway. ;D 3. Want another member of Cardolan's delegation? How about Herunarth, if the grandfather would risk it? Of course, there could be a younger brother kept safe at home. Gives Herunarth a chance to befriend Beleg. 4. Duindil ~ Duilin: I only noticed it as I typed it in, and almost commented myself. 5. Cardolan might even use second age names of Numenorean royalty. 6. Doubtful there'd be a "Beleg" in Cardolan's line. As the son and Heir of Amlaith, I portray him as a bitter man in my histories - and mention in a fanfic* (currently standing pat at 5/7's finished), that as the forces gathered in a standoff at Arnor's division, he wounded Caryontar with an arrow (while a rather young man - living up to his namesake, Beleg Strongbow). I suppose he would be a commonly detested figure in Cardolan - at least in her ruling family - and his name would not be inflicted upon any youngster born therein. ;D * it's called "Visitors Come to Court" - let me know if you want to read what I've got so far, and I'll link you in the right general direction. g'night! 
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Post by Gordis on Sept 6, 2007 2:49:18 GMT
Another interesting discussion... I must say that I largely agree with Duilin's points - I don't think that ALL Isildur's descendants could possibly be extinct in Cardolan. But male descendants for sure. I guess that making Herunarth the last king's Dirion's grand nephew is a good idea - at least simpler to understand than a more complicated connection. Just see this quote: 'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
'To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.
'"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."
To this Gondor made no answer. The crown was claimed by Eärnil, the victorious captain; and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dúnedain in Gondor, since he was of the royal house. He was the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil II. So in neither of the kingdoms in exile the decendants through a female had any rights. Arvedui's claim was rightfully rejected because Earnil I was a descendant from father to son from Narmacil II and therefore Anarion. Of course, from the POV of unity of Dunedanic kingdoms it was a pity but well... But note, Gondor's reply to Arvedui might have had a sarcastic, snide twist to it - lost on us as we don't know well how the lines in Cardolan and Rhudaur ended. Perhaps, the sous-entendu of "we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor" was something like that: "you, perfide northerners, had rejected a similar claim by the last King of Cardolan's dauther and her hasbund, did you not? You, bastards, have dispossessed the poor orphaned Gimilbeth  - and now you are bold enough to press a similar claim before us?" ;D Re: names. Fireside Inn is great. I love Herunarth. I like Galphant - unusual and reflects the green hills of Cardolan. Taur-something I dislike because Taur-something is too close to Tarn-something e.g. Tarnendur, Tarniel etc There might be some ship names, as Cardolan has the only large port in Arnor. Cirya-something. Also there were recently large fortifications built, or are now being built, so the guy who did it (the old Prince of Baranduin?) could get the name of Wall-builder or something. My Sindarin is rusty - can't translate it myself, could you, please, help me, Val? Speaking of names... I am worried about Tyrn Gorthad. I don't know what "Tyrn" means - I suspect "Downs". But Gor- Gorth- surely refers to terror, horror as in "Gorthaur". I guess the place got its name AFTER the WK populated it with his wights. Now what could this place have been called before - when there was a fortress of Cardolan? Tyrn-something I guess... maybe Tyrn Aranad - the downs of the Kings? Ideas? |
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Post by Duilin on Sept 6, 2007 4:20:21 GMT
Duilin: some stray answers to a few points across your last couple posts: 1. I think that the descendants of Isildur in Cardolan and Rhudaur were gone by 1349 - not just 1356 - because I think there's significance to the name "Argeleb". (I suspect the claim was made at his ascension) Certainly this is how we're playing it here. I don't think it's completely clear in Tolkien, though. 2. This may shock you - but I'll concede you the point of maternal (or matrimonial) connectivity with the line of Isildur for the Prince of Baranduin - maybe even a brother and sister wed a sister and brother. You make some very good points, which could add lots of interest to the game. And - I've already reconciled myself to keeping variances in the game separate from my own personal established "history" - in my own mind anyway. ;D Huzzah! 3. Want another member of Cardolan's delegation? How about Herunarth, if the grandfather would risk it? Of course, there could be a younger brother kept safe at home. Gives Herunarth a chance to befriend Beleg. His presence sounds good to me. I was even thinking of the possibility that Herunarth (although I didn't know that was his name, of course) was the man that Duilin spoke to at the Prancing Pony. If so, though, I'd want to change it - I would want to make his side of the conversation a lot more awkward, in that he's not used to that kind of thing. But I don't think he should be a formal member of the delegation - just travelling with his father. My idea was that the council, which is currently ruling the country, had sent a delegation of its own members to And presumably there wouldn't be much thought that there would be a great risk in travelling to Amon Sûl - the orc attack on the road won't be known until more or less when they arrive. 5. Cardolan might even use second age names of Numenorean royalty. Hmm...Aldarion would actually be a great name. "Lord of Trees". That'd work for a prince living on the edge of the Old Forest. It's Quenya, though... 6. Doubtful there'd be a "Beleg" in Cardolan's line. As the son and Heir of Amlaith, I portray him as a bitter man in my histories - and mention in a fanfic* (currently standing pat at 5/7's finished), that as the forces gathered in a standoff at Arnor's division, he wounded Caryontar with an arrow (while a rather young man - living up to his namesake, Beleg Strongbow). I suppose he would be a commonly detested figure in Cardolan - at least in her ruling family - and his name would not be inflicted upon any youngster born therein. ;D Oh, I wasn't suggesting Beleg, specifically. I was just noting that repeating names of famous first age figures was not limited to the Stewards of Gondor - that one king of Arthedain also did this, and that thus it would be plausible if such a pratice was done by Princes of Baranduin, as well. * it's called "Visitors Come to Court" - let me know if you want to read what I've got so far, and I'll link you in the right general direction. I actually came across it through one of your other links. Didn't get a chance to finish it, though. |
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Post by Duilin on Sept 6, 2007 4:27:44 GMT
But note, Gondor's reply to Arvedui might have had a sarcastic, snide twist to it - lost on us as we don't know well how the lines in Cardolan and Rhudaur ended. Perhaps, the sous-entendu of "we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor" was something like that: "you, perfide northerners, had rejected a similar claim by the last King of Cardolan's dauther and her hasbund, did you not? You, bastards, have dispossessed the poor orphaned Gimilbeth - and now you are bold enough to press a similar claim before us?" ;D Indeed, this was my thought as well - that Arvedui's ancestors, in their haste to claim the throne of Cardolan (Rhudaur's a weirder case, since Arthedain never got to take it over, but clearly Argeleb rejected Gimilbeth's claim, assuming she was alive in 1349), had foreclosed his possibility of claiming the throne of Gondor. But I didn't have quotes to back myself up (my copies of the books have been packed away for the next several weeks, sadly, as I'm going abroad for a bit.) Taur-something I dislike because Taur-something is too close to Tarn-something e.g. Tarnendur, Tarniel etc True. "Taur" is also a kind of awkward sound to say. There might be some ship names, as Cardolan has the only large port in Arnor. Cirya-something. "Cirya" is Quenya, no? Speaking of names... I am worried about Tyrn Gorthad. I don't know what "Tyrn" means - I suspect "Downs". But Gor- Gorth- surely refers to terror, horror as in "Gorthaur". I guess the place got its name AFTER the WK populated it with his wights. Now what could this place have been called before - when there was a fortress of Cardolan? Tyrn-something I guess... maybe Tyrn Aranad - the downs of the Kings? Ideas? Oh, good call. Tyrn Aranad sounds good to me. |
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Post by Gordis on Sept 6, 2007 5:19:40 GMT
Cyria is surely Quenia, Duilin is right. I don't know the Sindarin equivalent.
"Wall builder" would be "Rammastir", I guess.
Perhaps we could call the oldest Prince of Baranduin Rammastir (the one who became reknown for building fortifications along the Great road in Dirion's time)
His son -the future Prince of Cardolan - would be Galphant or Galaphant - the latter is easier to pronounce
And his grandson (Beleg's friend) would be Herunarth
Sounds agreeable?
Duilin, I don't think the Prince would leave his young son in Bree to hire mercenaries. Seems far beneath him-and quite dangerous. I think Herunarth would be by his father's side.
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Post by Gordis on Sept 6, 2007 6:32:29 GMT
Val - Just noticed this one: "I had already named the young future last Prince: Herunarth, b. 1313 - which makes him 34 now. His future daughter (hmm... should we set him up with Hendegil?) will be Galien, b. 1408.
You can set him up with Hendegil, if you wish, but - PLEASE consider changing the birthdate of Galien. She is a very good candidate for the one Tom Bombadil recalled in LOTR - the fairest of all who is now forgotten or something like that. (The owner of the brooch he took for Goldberry).
For that Galien has to be born earlier - 1380 or around. I guess Tom didn't refer to a baby. It will be quite OK for Herunarth to have children earlier than Beleg - even more natural if he met Hendigil already in 1349. They still have 30 years to think on it. ;D But 58 would be overmuch, IMO.
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Post by Valandil on Sept 6, 2007 11:12:24 GMT
A few answers: 1. Duilin - Actually, I didn't get to finish "Visitors Come to Court" either! ;D 2. Gordis - tyrn = barrows and gurth = death. It could have been a name for the place (with others buried there besides the Kings), but I definitely need a different name for a fortress. Let me look a little more. It occurs to me that those living there might contemptuously be called 9in some quarters) "Tiragurth" - 'watchers of the dead' - or something like that. I think while Arnor lasted, the Princes of Baranduin lived rather close to the Baranduin River - maybe in what was later Buckland, maybe very close to Sarn Ford. I think they relocated after the Division to help hold the northern border with Arthedain (should it prove necessary) - and while the land contained many graves, the Barrow Downs proved most defensible and was very near both major roads. I think I'll tweak my history to say so, and place Cardolan's Kings somewhat south of there - maybe at my own creation of "Harnost". Anyway - I like those other names you give, but I suppose the walls along the north edge of Cardolan were likely built much earlier in Cardolan's history. If we keep the name though, Rammastir could have built other walls, or been named in honor of the ancestor who built them. Also... our Rammastir is building "walls" of his own. 3. I think whoever wore the brooch would die tragically - either in 1409 or before. If it's Hendegil, she would only be 86 in 1408, well within child-bearing age for a Dunedain. And Galien might have been a third or fourth child, the older ones possibly slain in 1409 as well. I kept Galien as young as possible, since she is to marry Araphor, and he is only 18 in 1409. |
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Post by Gordis on Sept 6, 2007 12:53:58 GMT
2. Gordis - tyrn = barrows and gurth = death. It is not "G urthad", but "G orthad" - IMO surely refers to "horror" not "death". I still cling to my theory. After all, since 1636 there was plenty of time to rename the place and forget the older one by the time of LOTR. I like my "Tyrn Aranad" idea - the arrogant first King of Cardolan making his abode on the King's Downs - it gave him more legitimacy, I believe - at least in his own eyes - to settle near the grave-place of his ancestors. That would be funny. I am confused. I thought your Harnost was far away from South Downs and Barrow-Downs. Anyway, I think that by 1409 the Kings and later Princes of Cardolan should have lived in Tyrn Gorthad. The destruction of this place by Angmar coincided with the death of the last Prince and the treasures in his grave proved that it was not a mere border fortress but most likely the capital of Cardolan. Good point. Likely the main part of the fortifications had been build earlier - when Cardolan had been stronger and warred with Arthedain and Rhudaur. But our Rhammastir could have devoted his life to keeping all those gigantic defences in good shape, reparing and enlarging them - a difficult task, considering Cardolan's dwindling resourses. Perhaps the old guy has become somewhat obsessed by the threat from Arthedain. ;D I think Hendegil is not really qualified... she is hardly wondrously beautiful - at least not enough to be called "the fairest of all" a thousand and a half years later  Then a good romantic legend normally has a fair maiden in it and not a middle-aged matron . But I also understand your reasons to have Galien born in 1408. So - the only means to remedy that is to give Galien an older strikingly beautiful sister - that will die cruelly at the hands of the men of Carn-Dum in 1409. Oh... Elfhild would excel in playing her. So tragic! Also give her a brother or two for good measure... |
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Post by Duilin on Sept 6, 2007 13:44:42 GMT
Hmm....it seems likely to me that as long as there was a King of Cardolan, the Prince and the King would have lived in different places.
Two options for that:
1) the Kings of Cardolan live at Tyrn Gorthad, while the Princes of Baranduin live somewhere else (Sarn Ford?), until the Princes are given the title of Prince of Cardolan, at which point they move to Tyrn Gorthad.
2) the option already suggested by Valandil - the Princes live at Tyrn Gorthad, and the kings live somewhere else.
There's also option 3:
3) the princes a nd the kings lived together at Tyrn Gorthad, like the Princes of Fornost and Kings of Arthedain at Fornost.
I think my order of preferences of these three possibilities is the order I've listed them, 1, 2, 3.
As to the other discussion, middle-aged matrons among the Dúnedain are probably better looking than fair maidens of most other races...
And, yes, Gordis, sending the heir of the heir to Bree to hire thugs doesn't seem that likely. If nobody objects, I'm going to name the servant "Aegnor" ("Sharp flame"), and the Prince's heir Galphant (although I'd prefer "Galaphant," if that's etymologically feasible).
Names still needed for the old prince and various counsellors.
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- and now you are bold enough to press a similar claim before us?" ;D
Then a good romantic legend normally has a fair maiden in it and not a middle-aged matron