Cardolan problem

[Duilin]

Hi all - I'm particularly interested in how plausible people find my proposed reconstruction of Cardolani politics at this point, and also whether it conflicts with the story as planned.

[Valandil]

Duilin:

Gordis and I kicked this whole idea (Cardolan's willingness) around a couple years ago. First, let me start with the quotation from Appendix A that helped formulate my position:

In the days of Argeleb, son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur...

* (see below)

By implication, since Cardolan is not mentioned as resisting Argeleb's claim, I took it that they came back into Arthedain's sway quite willingly.

However, what Tolkien gives us in this section is a very broad, sweeping history. A short summary of what transpired. In that sense, it's very easy to suppose that there was SOME resistance to reunification in Cardolan, but since it happened anyway, the details of the rejoining would have been of little interest to someone providing a summary, many hundreds of years later.

So... it could well be what we now find in Cardolan. And if the Prince is opposed - he would either be won over, or else his son might be more favorable to the notion. And... maybe a visit to Amon Sul about this time would add more interest, and be plausible within the greater history.

What do the rest of you think?

* Two little asides from this passage:
1. From the time Argeleb made this claim, his descendants in direct line from him to Aragorn (we're talking 25 generations, inclusive), all began their name with the "ar" prefix - signifying that claim over all Arnor (note 3 from the list of "Heirs of Isildur", earlier in Appendix A).

2. In "The Peoples of Middle-Earth" - HoME 12, Christopher Tolkien shows that his father initially gave alternate names for the three kings following Malvegil:

Celebrindol (Argeleb I)
Beleg (Arveleg I)
Malvegil II (Araphor)

He even makes note of how curious it is that the first three do not begin with "ar" - as had just been stated.

However, the logical conclusion to me is that these three could have been birth names, and that the "Ar" names were taken on coming to the throne - because that claim on all Arnor was new enough to have come after their birth.

At least that works well for the first two: Celebrindol/Argeleb and Beleg/Arveleg. My first thought on Araphor was that the custom was not yet well-established (plausible enough, I think), but then I thought it could be interesting to make him a second son - his older brother slain at Amon Sul's capture, along with their father, Arveleg.

Araphor, btw - goes on to have a reign of 180 years, after coming to the throne at 18. Serenoli, this one is the son of Beleg/Arveleg and Odaragariel (though he won't be born for another 40+ years)!

[Duilin]

Valandil - I think the prince will be won over by a) his growing realization that, while he has the strength to prevent Arthedain's claim from being accepted, or at least to delay it indefinitely, he doesn't have the requisite support to claim the throne for himself. I would imagine that his Arvdeui-like rumblings about the ancient Númenorean custom of accepting succession in the female line are not well-receivved, and that he increasingly feels it's a lost cause - the only way to prevent Arthedain from taking charge is to found another Cardolani male line descendant of Isildur, and as far as the prince is concerned, that's worse than annexation. So he'll gradually be coming around. What happens to Rhudaur would be enough of a shock to lead him to fully accede.

[Duilin]

So, anyway, I'd love to come to a conclusion on this. I want to write a post about my guys in Bree, but what exactly happens is going to depend on the Cardolan stuff.

[Valandil]

For my part, I'm open to it. But I'd like to hear from other board members.

And... I don't want it to cause me any more work. ;D

[Duilin]

I'm happy to take charge of Cardolan-related matters, if that's what you mean. I'm more or less envisioning a small Cardolani delegation being sent to Amon Sûl, including both the prince and one or two of his leading political opponents (i.e. supporters of an Arthedainic solution), ostensibly in order, as I said, to talk to Gondor about potential descendants of the first king of Cardolan (I've forgotten what you called him, and am too lazy to look it up right now) in Gondor. But the Prince (who, perhaps, spent some time in Gondor in his youth, like Tarnendur?) also hopes to gain private access to the Palantir (escaping the attention of both his own companions and the Arthedainic authorities) in order to try to muster up some support for his own ambitions. My previously created characters would have been hired by him largely to aid him in these illicit efforts - a pair of rogues with few to no local connections would be better for these purposes than his own retainers, who might be caught and cast suspicion onto him. That's how I envision it playing out at least. This would all, I suspect, be a less serious sideshow to whatever you all have planned for Amon Sûl - I wasn't clear on the specifics of what you all have planned, although I assume that Gimilbeth is going to try to get support from Arthedain and Gondor against the Hillmen, and that this is going to largely fail. I'm not sure how the end game of my scenario plays out - I assume the Prince will fail in his efforts to get Gondorian support, and that Duilin and Thurisind will end up heading east to Rhudaur, but I've no fixed ideas about the exact circumstances.

If that's not liked, I'll have to come up with another reason to send Duilin and Thurisind to Amon Sûl. And I too would like to hear what others think. I've not yet actually had to write anything that interacts with what you all have been doing, so I want to be sure to get it right when I do.

[Gordis]

I think it is a sound plot, Duilin, I have nothing against it.

[Rian]

valandil said:

For my part, I'm open to it. But I'd like to hear from other board members.

All these politics give me a headache!

You guys do whatever sounds good. My characters are independent of politics although they'll be affected by it.

[Duilin]

Well, if no further objections, I think I'll write out my next chapter, then, later tonight. Let me know what you think.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Duilin, I have no objections either.