Shadow Over Rhudaur Planning Thread

[Valandil]

I agree Angmar - that's why I decided to not go very heavy on how many Orcs had apparently been killed in the aftermath. OTOH - it was too good an opportunity to COMPLETELY let pass by. ;D But we probably don't want to do it again for the game.

If the force of Orcs still appears almost overwhelming though, maybe a few desertions could even things up a bit...

[Witch-king of Angmar]

valandil said:

I agree Angmar - that's why I decided to not go very heavy on how many Orcs had apparently been killed in the aftermath. OTOH - it was too good an opportunity to COMPLETELY let pass by. ;D But we probably don't want to do it again for the game.

If the force of Orcs still appears almost overwhelming though, maybe a few desertions could even things up a bit...

Val, desertions are a great way to cut down numbers. With a minor operation like this, there can't be a supply line, so the orcs aren't receiving provisions from the North. They have to forage off the land. There would be grumbling. Some might be sick of the whole thing and find an opportune time just to run. It is not like a battlefield where there would be soldiers on a detail to catch deserters. Feel free to cut into those numbers if you have a chance.

[Valandil]

Well - I figure those Orcs are yours to handle. I also wasn't sure if we had settled on determining combat values for the various types of troops involved. You had some initial suggestions, a few others of us threw out some alternatives - but I didn't know if we ever came to something final.

[Gordis]

It is good to settle on something final.

But, anyway, IIRC, we have all agreed that 200 (or even 190) orcs are stronger than 40 Dunedain+20 Dwarves + 2 Elves.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

valandil said:

Well - I figure those Orcs are yours to handle. I also wasn't sure if we had settled on determining combat values for the various types of troops involved. You had some initial suggestions, a few others of us threw out some alternatives - but I didn't know if we ever came to something final.

Val - I have been searching in the archives and I can't discover that we came to anything final on the combat values. Here are some of your preliminary statistics:

Start with the base of 1 = 1 (regular) man - 1 hill man.
1 Dunedain = 1.5 men
1 Dwarf = 1.5 men
1 Smallish Orc = 0.5 men
1 Bigger Orc = 0.75 men
1 Wood Elf = 2.0 men
1 Sindar = 3.0 men
1 Noldor = 4.0 men
1 Halfling = 0.375 men

Gordis suggested this:

I feel a Dunedain should be about 3-4 times stronger than an orc.
As for Elves, I think Val overestimates them. High Numenoreans in the Second age grew to be similar to Elves in appearance, but stronger and taller. Now in the Third Age they have dwindled, so I guess they became a bit weaker than Noldor physically. But of course, the Elves should get extra-points for long experience.
I would say: 1 Dunadan = 4 orcs
1 Dwarf = 3 orcs
1 Noldo Elf = 6 orcs
So we have 20 Dunedain + 20 Dwarves + 2 Noldor = 80+60+12 =152 orcs. AND it is still not enough to fight Ashuk's company of 200!
So I say, irrespective of the ways to count, Merendil has to give Gimilbeth an additional company of Dunedain soldiers for her to make it to Amon Sul.

Val added:

You're probably right about the Elves, Gordis. Even those who came from Aman - because it's been 5000 years since they left it, and the Elves who returned have been "fading" ever since. Maybe those "Elf modifiers" should drop to 1.25/1.5/1.75 or something.

***

I might have missed some figures from the discussion, so this does not necessarily consider all of the discussion on this. Since these posts, the orc company has been whittled down to 193, with Boshok's troop down to five men with four of them wounded but still able to fight. (Perhaps not so effectively).

There has been a discussion of additional soldiers to guard Gimilbeth's party. That is a possibility, and there is always the likelihood that some of the orcs will desert because they are disgruntled, demoralized, etc.

While I control the orcs, there are a lot of other characters who will be involved in this scene. I am still not certain exactly how to begin.

[Gordis]

I would say with 20 additional guards Gimilbeth has got, the two sides are almost evenly matched.

We can take somewhat weaker figures for the Good Guys:
1 Dunadan = 3 orcs
1 Dwarf = 2 orcs
1 Noldo Elf = 5 orcs

So 40 Dunedaun = 120 orcs
20 Dwarves = 40 orcs
2 Elves = 10 orcs
_________________
Gimilbeth's party = 170 orcs against Ashuk's 193

That will make for a great bloody battle with an uncertain result and lots of casualities on both sides.

Kill them, Angmar, make it horrible and angsty! ;D

I give my permission to kill anyone of my characters you like: Gwindor, Elvigil, Gimilbeth's pages, her maid Nimraen etc.
Just spare Gimilbeth, Hurgon, Callon, Gere and A&T...

[Witch-king of Angmar]

gordis said:

Kill them, Angmar, make it horrible and angsty! ;D

Gordis, I promise you that it will be bloody. When should the orcs attack? The days are short, with dusk falling around 5 PM. Perhaps they should strike when Gimilbeth and her party are marching in the late afternoon, or should the attack come when Gimilbeth's troop is resting for the night? We need to get these matters agreed upon before the killing can begin. ;D

I hope to get started on this on Tuesday, so all the help would be appreciated.

[Gordis]

I guess the orcs have to attack just when darkness falls - around 5 pm - while G is yet well away from the Last Bridge. The Dwarves will slow her progress.

If the orcs wait until the night, the company will come to the Last Bridge to spend the night there - and I am sure that the Last Bridge is guarded by troops of Rhudaur. Also there is likely a settlement there.

[Gordis]

Planning ahead - how to manage game threads.

So, it looks like we can leave Gimilbeth and al. for a while - for the rest of the journey to Amon Sul is likely to be dull -and concentrate on Cameth Brin?

For now, I propose to continue the "Perilous Journeys" thread to describe the things further: all these comings and goings of the messengers, Caelen's problems and love life etc, Agannalo's welcome in Carn Dum - until the return of Merendil which will happen, I guess, around November 12-13.

Then I propose to finish "Perilous Journeys" and open 2 parallel game threads - one for Gimilbeth in Arthedain ("Shadow IV- Amon Sul"); another for Cameth Brin (Shadow V - We have to name it somehow)
Then we will not be obliged to coordinate the time in these two threads- as there will be no interaction between the two places. I guess the Amon Sul thread will cover all Gimilbeth's stay there, ending in March '47), while Cameth Brin thread will have much more posts and go at a different pace.

Ideas?

[Valandil]

Gordis - that may be the way to go, but something else to consider:

Gimilbeth's visit to Amon Sul might be most eventful at the very start - and much less so as time went by. Maybe you have a few things planned, but to me, the scene seems pretty static - after she arrives and there's probably a lot going on the first few days.

I have also wondered if other players - maybe even you - might want to go through the winter at a faster pace. It will probably be less eventful than the fall was - or than the ensuing spring and summer will be. We need to set the stage for spring, but I really doubt we want to drag that out day by day so much. But... please allow for those of us who want to get things in to do so.

Now - Rian and I have already discussed how we might have to "pick things up" with our characters - be prepared to post whatever we wanted to cover in a short time, just so we don't keep everyone else idle for too long (if winter gives us nothing to do... except cozy up by the fire ).

So - one thread might work. Or - a short one (Thread IV) that features the first few days at Amon Sul - followed by Thread V at Cameth Brin - which essentially starts when IV ends, but could carry a little bit of follow-up Amon Sul storyline action.

Anyway... we should talk about what you have in mind for Amon Sul.

Meanwhile:
* Those on the Council (BTW - I strongly suggest just "Council of Rhudaur" instead of King's Private Council or something - that follows the format used by Tolkien in mentions of Council of Gondor, Council of Numenor, etc - and it IS Council! ) - anyway, those on the Council need to work up their November 6 meeting.
* I need to fill an Eryndil placeholder.
* Then I need to go back and write a long-promised "Beleg post" - on the Road to Amon Sul from Fornost of Arthedain.

How does any of that sound? Gordis? Others?