Shadow Over Rhudaur Planning Thread

[Gordis]

Val, I have just read your new post- had no time yesterday.

I like it very much with all the details about Eryndil's way (btw, the village where there had been an execution a week ago is called "Penn"), about the prices at the Inns etc. I love such details - they make the account sound true. Ahh... geography and architecture...
Also the dating is quite OK, IMO, as well as the reason given to send CC's forward.

Now, Val and Rian that is what came to my mind while reading Val's post :

"Eryndil waved his farewell to Callon and Caelen as they headed back onto the road toward Cameth Brin. The brother and sister should be alright the rest of the way. This stretch of road was well-traveled, and might be about the safest in all Rhudaur (if that was saying much), so they should soon be in town, only two leagues (six miles) away."

Note: Eryndil describes the situation as it has been before Broggha's army came to Cameth Brin: before Oct 19. But we are on October 21, and Eryndil doesn't know that to get to Cameth Brin, CC's will have to go not only through Tanoth Brin, but by the main camp of Broggha's men that is being built by the King's road before it starts its climb up the hill to Cameth Brin. Unbeknownst to Eryndil, THIS stretch of road has become the least safe in all Rhudaur.

What I am getting at is that I think it would be GREAT if Rian expanded the beginning of her arrival post (dated Oct 21): how CC's rode first through Tanoth Brin (where the hillmen residents still celebrated Broggha's arrival two days ago, calling him "Savior"), and then by the Broggha's army camp itself, where hundreds of brigands were busy building shacks, drinking and merrymaking. There Caelen would have gotten more then ten times her share of lustful glances and dirty comments - CC's would have been quite frightened and appalled. So Callon's rush decision later and his need to protect his sister would be much more understandable. He must have been frantic by the time they reached the stables - he hadn't even thought about Eryndil when he told his lie.

What do you think Rian?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

earniel said:

Hey guys, I've just finished reading the third part of the RPG and I find myself itching to participate, which I take as a sign that my burn-out is... well, reaching a burn-out of its own.

Earniel, your return is wonderful news! With your return and the inclusion of "Shadow Over Rhudaur" on both OSA and Fanfiction.net, I consider this a very good week for this forum.

The burn out/flame out on "Wraiths and Kings" took out a lot of the enthusiasm in some of us for a while. The reason this board was created was so that nothing like that would ever happen again and we all could work together in peace and mutual respect. The beauty of it all is that it is working!

[Gordis]

Oh, I have another idea: it would be even better if Angmar could write another Heggr-Griss post after Eryndil's at the end of Shadow II, dated Oct. 21 - how Heggr and maybe Griss and their buddies watch CC's ride alone up the King's road by their camp and ..ahem.. are being disrespectful ;D.

Let us suppose that Broggha ordered them not to molest the travellers on the road - but looking and commenting is not "molesting" - right? ;D

Also Griss and Heggr should recognise their escaped "tasty morsel" in Caelen.

[Valandil]

gordis said:

:
:
Note: Eryndil describes the situation as it has been before Broggha's army came to Cameth Brin: before Oct 19. But we are on October 21, and Eryndil doesn't know that to get to Cameth Brin, CC's will have to go not only through Tanoth Brin, but by the main camp of Broggha's men that is being built by the King's road before it starts its climb up the hill to Cameth Brin. Unbeknownst to Eryndil, THIS stretch of road has become the least safe in all Rhudaur.
:
:

Gordis - thanks for the reminder about the camp - I have the next segment pretty much written - so I'll work that in. In fact, I'm turning what I thought would be one post to handle Eryndil's arrival into four - (1) the one I did at Riverside, (2) the ride on to Cameth Brin, (3) the audience with the King, (4) arrival at/description of Eryndil's quarters in town. For 3 & 4, I'll also think of a good way to make sure E has something else to do so that he's not involved in the Bear Fiasco and the subsequent turmoil.

However - I doubt Broggha would allow his men to make the King's Road the most "dangerous" road in Rhudaur. It might be a lot less pleasant to see, filled with unsavory looking characters - but I don't think Broggha can be such an affront to everyone else so soon. In fact - he should be trying to make it look like he's the man to restore order to the Kingdom, which nobody else can provide. Otherwise - he'd lose all credibility, all support.

I'm going to follow-up with a second post to address a couple "political" issues in Rhudaur. Just for helping to set the stage.

[Valandil]

* WARNING - POST CONTAINS "POLITICAL" CONTENT *

It's been awhile since we discussed these things, and I didn't remember if we came to a consensus on them. I'll bring up a few points, and tell you my opinion of how things should be - and I invite discussion, particularly if some of you see things otherwise.

1. Relative Strength of Broggha / Tarnendur:
I think Broggha cannot yet have forces nearly equal to the King's - or else the game would pretty much be over. I think anywhere from 20% to 40% of the King's forces is more realistic. Otherwise, he doesn't have to watch his step AT ALL - and could more or less make himself King right now. If he's a bit smaller, he has to use subterfuge. If he pushes the King too far right now, the King could call in all his forces and wipe him out. But that is the LAST thing the King wants to do - because it would be devastating to his Kingdom. Broggha's job is to keep the King thinking there's no reason to do that.
Even economically this makes sense. It takes a lot of resources to keep a standing army. A king can get those resources from taxes. How does Broggha do it? Stealing? To keep an army up, he'd soon wipe out everything around him, and the King wouldn't stand for that. Even the people (even the Hillmen) wouldn't stand for it.
Since he now has Penmorva, Broggha has a tax-base of some sort for his men. The King will hope that this keeps Broggha content for awhile, and it should... APPEAR to. If Broggha asks for any more too soon, the King would resist. And - even the resources Broggha gets from Penmorva would only provide so much support - it's a matter of scale. The King's share from the Kingdom would HAVE to give him much more provision than any noble would receive.
The thing is... Broggha wouldn't HAVE to have more than the King. Things are going his way already. He just has to keep them moving along like that. When a decisive moment comes, he has the advantage of his army being all in one place - while the King has the responsibility of protecting the entire kingdom. But if Broggha makes himself a stench too soon, he risks having the King rally all his forces to wipe him out. And... frankly, I think Broggha's forces would be particularly vulnerable in a camp along the King's Road... a walled city above, a walled city below... pretty much trapped in between. If forces from across the kingdom rallied outside of town, prevented messengers from coming and going, then all marched into / through Tanoth Brin one day - Broggha is gone.
And Broggha would know that - so he has to play his game, and grow stronger slowly. He also has to prove his worth - to SOMEbody at least. And somebody local (not just in Angmar).

2. Role of Angmar:
I don't think Angmar can be a source of unlimited resources for Broggha - or even for itself. It's a harsh land, a new kingdom, and remote from the southern lands from where many of its inhabitants ostensibly came. If Angmar was all that strong, it would not have taken it 700 years to wipe out three divided, weakened, diminishing Dunedain kingdoms. They would just march out and do it today.
Angmar's role should be that of INSTIGATOR. It cannot yet come in and dominate - so it has to be sneaky. The last thing Angmar wants to do is give the Dunedain kingdoms a good reason to rally together and send a major force northward.
Even in dealing with Broggha - I think Angmar needs to promise him something on certain conditions, then leave him to meet those conditions himself.

But I also think a fitting epilog to this game will be Broggha's death at the hands of the Witch-King... unless he lets his new pet, Gimilbeth, take care of the matter for him - before he totally ruins her.

3. The Council of Rhudaur:
I did not at all mean that this new group that King Tarnendur is gathering would replace the existing Council. First, let me give you my views on the Council itself.
My concept of the "Councils" of the various Dunedain Kingdom (there are hints that they existed - also one on Numenor) - is based on the Saxon "Witan". The Witan advised the King - even chose his successor (but his expressed wishes, and certainly lineage, were given great weight in the decision). It included the King, the highest nobles, the archbishop, and maybe another person or two. In the Dunedain case, I don't know about choosing successors - but I think this Council IS an official, standing body - with some kind of powers. It should include only a handful of nobles - of the higher ranks. In place of an Archbishop, it could include a "Loremaster" or some such - and maybe "Captain of the Armies" (and "Navies" for seagoing kingdoms) - maybe a couple other officials, along with the King and his named Heir.
King Tarnendur would not displace this Council.
However - he wants to surround himself with some men he can trust. Not an official government body, but a group who can "watch his back". They would have no political power in themselves at all - except that they have access to the King (which isn't bad). But this group is not there in regard to advancing themselves, or their own interests - they are there FOR the King and Kingdom.

At least ostensibly... but that could become another part of our story.

Basically - the reason I did this was that so much of (ALL?) the game action was taking place in Cameth Brin - and Eryndil (along with C&C) had been effectively isolated from it - while all the other characters were there. It was easier for C&C to come and go as they pleased - but Eryndil had an assignment. So - for me to get involved - at least with HIM - his assignment had to change. Was this a reasonable solution? I did not intend it to make him a powerful person in the Kingdom. Just to bring him to town.

Reactions? Responses? Further thoughts?

[Valandil]

PS: Summary of Broggha's Challenge: Less Wolf - More Fox

It's also possible that he won't understand this at first. It could be interesting to have him overstep his bounds - and nearly lose everything - but then come to realize this aspect of his situation, and adjust.

[Serenoli]

Val, great posts for Erindyl. And IIRC, the lands of Mitheithel belong to Odare, but Rhuadar is sort of acting as the steward/guardian right now. Daurendil disputed Tarnendur's right to give the lands away anyway; and the expectation is that a marriage between Daurendil and Odaragariel will permanently make them part of Rhuadar's property. Right now, Tarnendur's authority is paramount, as Gordis said.

Earniel... *joins Rian's dance* welcome back!!! The more the merrier!

[Gordis]

Val: " For 3 & 4, I'll also think of a good way to make sure E has something else to do so that he's not involved in the Bear Fiasco and the subsequent turmoil."
Eryndil can't be involved in that: the Bear fiasco etc. happened on the 19, and he arrived on the 22. Next day - Oct 23 - there was only the Private Council session and the "death" and funeral of Nauremir. As Eryndil is not a member of the Private Council and he doesn't know Nauremir, I don't see why he should be involved in this.


However - I doubt Broggha would allow his men to make the King's Road the most "dangerous" road in Rhudaur. It might be a lot less pleasant to see, filled with unsavory looking characters - but I don't think Broggha can be such an affront to everyone else so soon. In fact - he should be trying to make it look like he's the man to restore order to the Kingdom, which nobody else can provide. Otherwise - he'd lose all credibility, all support.
Quite right. I meant not REALLY dangerous - as CC's did ride past the camp safely - but unnerving and unpleasant to say the least. For them it did seem dangerous and frightening - imagine dozens of brigands watching them go by and eyeing and teasing Caelen...after everything the girl had to suffer near Morva Torch.

1. Relative Strength of Broggha / Tarnendur:
... PS: Summary of Broggha's Challenge: Less Wolf - More Fox. It's also possible that he won't understand this at first. It could be interesting to have him overstep his bounds - and nearly lose everything - but then come to realize this aspect of his situation, and adjust.

I think that was exactly what we played so far. First Broggha was over-reaching (burning Dunedain homesteads, taking Dunedain women as slaves, bringing a whole army to C.Brin ) - so he got warnings from Angmar (via Belzagar ) to slow down and stop bragging about his plans.
And the King is indeed strong enough to be able to resist Broggha. For instance Broggha boldly asked both Nauremir's head AND the lands of Imlad Mitheithel as a wereguild for his minor wound at the King's feast. And what? - he got nothing at all. The King simply refused. So Broggha decided to use stealth - organize orc attacks at various spots, try to stop Gimilbeth from asking Arthedain's help etc., but note: by orcs's hands and NOT by sending his army after her.


But if Broggha makes himself a stench too soon, he risks having the King rally all his forces to wipe him out. And... frankly, I think Broggha's forces would be particularly vulnerable in a camp along the King's Road... a walled city above, a walled city below... pretty much trapped in between. If forces from across the kingdom rallied outside of town, prevented messengers from coming and going, then all marched into / through Tanoth Brin one day - Broggha is gone. .

The place where Broggha has his camp is not on the plateau: it is in the valley of the Hoarwell- there is open escape from the camp to the South and South-East - not through Tanoth Brin. Also note that Tanoth Brin supports Broggha, not the King. On the other hand, as the situation stands now, the King is trapped in his Castle, the only access road controlled by Broggha. I think Broggha has chosen a perfect place for the camp.
But you are right, Val - Broggha shouldn't anger the King too much - lest the King summons all his army to Cameth Brin.

2. Role of Angmar:
I don't think Angmar can be a source of unlimited resources for Broggha "
Come on, Val - we have posted about tribute sent by Broggha to Angmar - not the other way round. The only help the WK gives him, apart from clever advice, is the company of Ashuk's orcs - 200 strong - sent to help Broggha.

Angmar's role should be that of INSTIGATOR. It cannot yet come in and dominate - so it has to be sneaky. The last thing Angmar wants to do is give the Dunedain kingdoms a good reason to rally together and send a major force northward.
That is why Angmar has not yet annexed even such poorly defended lands as Imlad Mitheithel... Perhaps, were not Tarnendur so opposed to him, the WK might have even tried to appear a good neighbor. Gimilbeth still thinks that an alliance is possible.

Even in dealing with Broggha - I think Angmar needs to promise him something on certain conditions, then leave him to meet those conditions himself.
I think Angmar promised Broggha to help him become King of Rhudaur in return for his allegiance and tribute. But will Angmar keep his word?

But I also think a fitting epilog to this game will be Broggha's death at the hands of the Witch-King... unless he lets his new pet, Gimilbeth, take care of the matter for him - before he totally ruins her. .
Why not - if Angmar chooses that for his characters.

Politically, keeping Gimilbeth alive as a hostage is a big trump for the WK - as Gimilbeth has better claim to the throne than Tarniel and Broggha (with the rest of the family gone). So, the WK can always threaten to supplant Broggha by Gimilbeth his pet. Perhaps that was how he finally got Rhudaur for himself?...

3. The Council of Rhudaur:
I did not at all mean that this new group that King Tarnendur is gathering would replace the existing Council.
Neither did I. I only meant that with Broggha as a member of it, the Council has become not much help. The King can't rely on it anymore - and note that the majority of the Council had voted for inviting Broggha to Cameth Brin and for giving him Penmorva. Now, I guess, the King will try to summon the Private council as rarely as possible, without, of course, officially dismantling it.

.In the Dunedain case, ...this Council IS an official, standing body - with some kind of powers. It should include only a handful of nobles - of the higher ranks. In place of an Archbishop, it could include a "Loremaster" or some such - and maybe "Captain of the Armies" (and "Navies" for seagoing kingdoms) - maybe a couple other officials, along with the King and his named Heir.
That was how it was played - see the list. The highest nobles of the Kingdom present at Cameth Brin, + King's heir.
Perhaps we could put Merendil the Captain of the Guards in it as well. Maybe a loremaster - why not?

And I agree with what you say about Eryndil's group.

So, to sum it all, I agree with all your points, Val - but that it is exactly how we tried to play the things so far.
Perhaps you have not read all the RPG? Or, it just SEEMS to me that all your conditions are met, but you feel it is not so?

[Eärniel]

valandil said:

And yeah - that "Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings" game made burn-outs of us ALL for a bit, didn't it?

Yeah, it did. But I think it's about time I got over it, got back in the RPG-saddle again and see what can be salvaged on the Entmoot-RPg forum now that it lost the majority of you guys.

edit - I was thinking that we should probably insert a few references to W. throughout the story to keep it consistent. It would be easy to do - kind of a "... with Wilwarin following unobtrusively behind them" kind of thing. And we prob. want to do something with her in the bear fight - either have her off-duty for the night, or write in some bits with her defending Tarniel (which might be hard - maybe the first option is better). Let us know, and I'm sure everyone will be glad to add in a few sentences

Considering Wilwarin will only guard the princesses by night (as during the day the girls will have their bodyguard to watch over them) her absence from the story so far will, I think, not be disruptive. I suppose we could let Wilwarin also watch over the girls in the evening, to allow some interaction, but the poor woman has to sleep sometime!

I had a placeholder post during the bear-fight on the old forum, in which I planned to write about Wilwarin's preparations for her first night of guard-duty but I suppose that didn't get transferred, right? Maybe our Terror of the North could include it somewhere after the bear-fight? (Once I've actually written it, of course.)

gordis said:

Earniel, what a wonderful news! Welcome back! ;D

admin said:

Earniel, your return is wonderful news!

serenoli said:

Earniel... *joins Rian's dance* welcome back!!! The more the merrier!

Thanks all.

What is OSA, by the way? I've seen it mentioned before but I don't know what it is.

[Rian]

gordis said:

What I am getting at is that I think it would be GREAT if Rian expanded the beginning of her arrival post (dated Oct 21): how CC's rode first through Tanoth Brin (where the hillmen residents still celebrated Broggha's arrival two days ago, calling him "Savior"), and then by the Broggha's army camp itself, where hundreds of brigands were busy building shacks, drinking and merrymaking. There Caelen would have gotten more then ten times her share of lustful glances and dirty comments - CC's would have been quite frightened and appalled. So Callon's rush decision later and his need to protect his sister would be much more understandable. He must have been frantic by the time they reached the stables - he hadn't even thought about Eryndil when he told his lie.

What do you think Rian?

great idea, Gordis - also, maybe I'll put in something about them finding out about Maleneth, too - what village was she from, or did we decide?