Distribution of the Palantri

[Witch-king of Angmar]

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Gordis

Oh, a first thread on a brand-new Forum!
So, here we go:

The distribution of the Palantiri.

Seven stones were brought from Tol Eressea and given to Amandil and his heirs. Elendil and his sons brought them to ME. From these Seven, three Elendil kept in Arnor and four were set in Gondor, where Isildur and Anarion resided.

So far, all was fair.

But then, Elendil and Anarion were slain, and Isildur left Gondor to Meneldil, son of Anarion, to rule. What is strange, is that Isildur left his nephew 4 of the stones, and kept only 3 for himself and his sons, though he was High King of both Arnor and Gondor. It was far too generous, I deem. At least, Isildur should have taken his own stone (that of Minas Ithil) with him, I think. Especially considering that this stone obviously was not in the Ithil tower anymore, but evacuated during the sack of the city, and probably travelled with Isildur all the way to Annuminas and Imladris, where the Last Alliance Army was being assembled.
And later, during Valandil's time and his heir's time, it seemed to be too late to correct the disproportion.

Gondor had a Master stone in Osgiliath and three minor stones set in Ithil, Anor and Orthanc.

And Arnor had Amon Sul master stone and only one good minor stone, as the stone of Emyn Beraid was practically useless and simply left to the Elves:.
QUOTE
One only remained in the North, the Elendil Stone on Emyn Beraid, but this was one of special properties, and not employable in communications. Heredi-tary right to use it would no doubt still reside in the "heir of Isildur," the recognized chieftain of the Dunedain, and descendant of Arvedui. But it is not known whether any of them, including Aragorn, ever looked into it, desiring to gaze into the lost West. This Stone and its tower were maintained and guarded by Círdan and the Elves of Lindon. [Author's note.] – It is told in Appendix A (I, iii) to The Lord of the Rings that the palantír of Emyn Beraid "was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Númenor for ever." Elendil's vision of Eressëa in "the palantír of Emyn Beraid is told of also in Of the Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 292); "it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Master-stone abode, and yet abides."



A side question: do you think the Stone of Emyn Beraid had been "peculiar" from the start, or did Elendil use it for so long to gaze at Avallone, that no weaker mind could ever since change the direction of its gaze? (In the same way that Saruman's stone was by default set on Barad-Dur?)

So, the Beraid stone being practically useless, only two stones were available at the time of Arnor's division. Arthedain kept the small stone AND the right to 1/3 of the bigger stone, Rhudaur and Cardolan were only left with 1/3 each, so to speak. No wonder they quarrelled over their "common" stone all the time. And it was set in the most precarious spot - right at the spot where all three realms had a common border - Cardolan South of Amon Sul, Arthedain West and Rhudaur East of the hill. So every realm who wished to make an attempt to seize the Stone, had an easy access to it. And at the same time, Gondor had 4 stones and even came to neglect some of them (like Ithil one).

I wonder how many diplomatic attempts were made by Arnor rulers to make Gondor grant them at least one extra stone... They must have sorely regretted Isildur's foolish generosity!

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Witch-king of Angmar

Gordis, I always thought the Palantir smacked too much of "plot devices" for my taste, so I have always been hesitant to write much about them. Since Tolkien always seemed to be trying to tell a story behind a story, are we to assume that Isildur's mistake in taking so few north was just another example of the short-sightedness of man? Or was this an example of the recklessness of Isildur?

I always considered that the one at Emyn Beraid was never supposed to be used for anything other than a "looking back" object set in a shrine of nostalgia, but those are just my thoughts.

Gordis

Recklessness? More like an over-generosity - leaving his bereft nephew not only a whole prosperous Kingdom, but 4 out of the 6 good Seeing Stones.

Somhow it is strange for a person who has the Ruling Ring in his pocket!

[Witch-king of Angmar]

CAB

It’s possible that it wasn’t recklessness or over-generosity. Maybe it was micro management. If Isildur wanted complete control of both kingdoms (a desire that may very well have been strengthened by his possession of the Ring), he may have thought it better to give orders directly to the leaders of the strongholds that held the Palantiri. This would somewhat undermine the authority of Gondor’s “king” while strengthening his own. He could use more conventional methods of sending messages in Arnor due to the shorter distances and the fact that there wasn’t another ruler there to deal with.

He may have also thought that Gondor was in a more dangerous position than Arnor (bordering on Mordor, pretty much open to attack from east and south),so they needed to be able to send emergency messages quickly.

Regarding the Emyn Beraid stone, I think what you suggest about Elendil is possible. I think it is more likely though, that this happened at the moment of the Downfall, while Elendil was looking for his father or a sign from the West. Maybe that cataclysm is what “fixed” the stone’s view.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

QUOTE
If Isildur wanted complete control of both kingdoms (a desire that may very well have been strengthened by his possession of the Ring), he may have thought it better to give orders directly to the leaders of the strongholds that held the Palantiri. This would somewhat undermine the authority of Gondor’s “king” while strengthening his own.



I agree, that Isildur very probably hoped to remain the High King de-facto, not only in theory, as he had the necessary authority and Power that Valandil his youngest son lacked.

So, your theory is quite plausible.

The only thing I am unsure about, is whether the Stone of Amon-Sul could communicate with smaller stones of Gondor, or only with the big stone of Osgiliath.
Otherwise, why the necessity to have two big stones? I know, it is not a valid argument history-wise, only fictional story-wise, but I shall have to check the UT Palantiri. Now I only remember that the maximum distance for 2 smaller stones was as from Orthanc to M. Anor.

As for the Beraid stone you are probably right. Elendil was sure gazing West during the Downfall, so the Stone got hooked with the "otherworld".

[Witch-king of Angmar]

CAB

QUOTE
The only thing I am unsure about, is whether the Stone of Amon-Sul could communicate with smaller stones of Gondor, or only with the big stone of Osgiliath.
Otherwise, why the necessity to have two big stones? I know, it is not a valid argument history-wise, only fictional story-wise, but I shall have to check the UT Palantiri. Now I only remember that the maximum distance for 2 smaller stones was as from Orthanc to M. Anor.



Your right Gordis. I didn’t even consider the distance problem. I suppose I could get around it by saying that maybe the warden of the Osgiliath stone reported (actually, would have reported) directly to Isildur and so would relay Isildur’s commands (and the other leaders replies) without any additional input or alteration from Gondor’s king.

I’m not sure about the distance issue though. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Tolkien never really made up his mind about this. If the maximum distance between small communicating stones was equal to Orthanc to Minas Anor (I think this may have been the max for only one small stone though), then how did Saruman and Sauron speak together? Also, Gandalf thought that he could see all the way to Valinor in the distant past. I guess this could be explained by the Palantiri actually being in Valinor at the time Gandalf was speaking of viewing, though. He could also simply have been mistaken about what could and could not be seen through the Palantiri.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

QUOTE
Your right Gordis. I didn’t even consider the distance problem. I suppose I could get around it by saying that maybe the warden of the Osgiliath stone reported (actually, would have reported) directly to Isildur and so would relay Isildur’s commands (and the other leaders replies) without any additional input or alteration from Gondor’s king.


That would be really churlish towards Meneldil, who, after all, resised in Osgiliath himself.
If you are right, then Meneldil had all the reasons to be happy when Isildur and Co never made it to Imladris. (I think I have read somewhere that he WAS happy).
Perhaps it was Meneldil who sent the orcs? (he-he - another conspiracy theory).
Actually in one thing Olmer was right, with Isildur, it was like in Christie's "Murder in the Eastern express" - everyone had plenty of reasons to wish him dead.


QUOTE
I’m not sure about the distance issue though. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Tolkien never really made up his mind about this. If the maximum distance between small communicating stones was equal to Orthanc to Minas Anor (I think this may have been the max for only one small stone though), then how did Saruman and Sauron speak together?


You are right, I think. The max distance given for the small stones must be for observation only. For two communicating stones, probably, the maximum distances should be summed.


QUOTE
Also, Gandalf thought that he could see all the way to Valinor in the distant past. I guess this could be explained by the Palantiri actually being in Valinor at the time Gandalf was speaking of viewing, though. He could also simply have been mistaken about what could and could not be seen through the Palantiri.


In the note 18 to the text "the Palantiri" in UT, it is said that images were stored in the stones.

QUOTE
"They retained the images received, so that each contained within itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past.


So one couldn't look into the past at will, only go through the files recorded on the Palantir's Hard Disk.

So, for instance, if the death of Isildur had not been observed by any stone in real time, one couldn't return into the past and watch it. That fact may also explain Sauron's and WK's interest in the Palantiri - one of the stones could have had info on the location of the One Ring.

Strange, by the way, that seemingly no one had followed Isildur's journey up the Vales in a Palantir! And there were 6 working stones at that time.
Orthanc was fairly near - perhaps it was this way that Saruman gained info where to look for Isildur's body and the Ring? Note that he started searching the Gladden about the same time when he started looking into the Orthanc stone - about 2760.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

CAB

QUOTE
That fact may also explain Sauron's and WK's interest in the Palantiri - one of the stones could have had info on the location of the One Ring.

Strange, by the way, that seemingly no one had followed Isildur's journey up the Vales in a Palantir! And there were 6 working stones at that time.
Orthanc was fairly near - perhaps it was this way that Saruman gained info where to look for Isildur's body and the Ring? Note that he started searching the Gladden about the same time when he started looking into the Orthanc stone - about 2760.


That’s a great idea Gordis. I had wondered before why Tolkien put the distance limits on the Palantiri. If they could see everywhere, then it would be very difficult to keep any secrets from a possessor of a Palantir. Maybe Tolkien realized this.

Kind of related question: Do you think the Palantiri saw/recorded things “seen” in the Unseen World? They were created by a Valinorean Elf for whom vision in both worlds was natural, so it seems to me that he wouldn’t limit the stones’ view to just the World of Light. What do you think?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

QUOTE
That’s a great idea Gordis. I had wondered before why Tolkien put the distance limits on the Palantiri. If they could see everywhere, then it would be very difficult to keep any secrets from a possessor of a Palantir. Maybe Tolkien realized this.


Thanks, CAB.
Really, it seems likely that nobody watched Isildur's death via Amon Sul stone: perhaps the warden was busy looking elsewhere.

All the small stones were too far, except for the Orthanc stone. Let us suppose that the warden saw the battle and Isildur's death. Probably he had reported to Osgiliath while the battle raged, and the Osgiliath palantir also recorded the event. But at the time, nobody in Gondor knew about the Ring, it seems. Isildur told his sons (see UT) about the Ring, but likely NOT Meneldil . So no one in Gondor understood the importance of the recorded picture.

As for Arnor, the tale of the Ring reached them, but they hadn't got the image. And relations with Gondor must have deteriorated fast. So all they knew about the location of the Ring, was the place where Isildur entered the water - he left his sword there. They didn't know he almost made it to the other bank.

Then, much later, the Osgiliath stone was lost, and the Orthanc stone found its way into Saruman's hands.


QUOTE
Kind of related question: Do you think the Palantiri saw/recorded things “seen” in the Unseen World? They were created by a Valinorean Elf for whom vision in both worlds was natural, so it seems to me that he wouldn’t limit the stones’ view to just the World of Light. What do you think?

I really don't know. I can only speculate...

I think, the pictures seen in a Palantir by any observer were recorded, so, if the observer had special abilities to see in the Unseen world, then it was recorded as he saw it. Like a picture made in infra-red rays: the person sorting through the files on a hard disc sees the picture, even if he has no infra-red camera himself.

The palantir itself is not a key between the Seen and the Unseen. So if a ringless nazgul uses the Palantir for observation, he will see the pictures of the World of Shadow, not the World of Light - as if he were close enough to look with his own eyes, without a stone. So, looking at the Dead Marches, he will see lots of unquiet spirits milling around there, but not the three hobbits crossing the Marches.

And a Calaquendi elf would have a choice, in what "mode" to look.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

QUOTE (Gordis @ Jun 3 2006, 11:21 AM)
:
:
Really, it seems likely that nobody watched Isildur's death via Amon Sul stone: perhaps the warden was busy looking elsewhere.
:
:


Hey Gordis - it looks like you've picked up on my use of the term "warden" for those responsible for the proper care and feeding of the Palantiri. (at least I don't THINK Tolkien used that word - did he?)

BTW - I intended to answer some of your earlier questions, but CAB answered them exactly as I would - both agreeing with your suggestion that Elendil possibly got the Palantir of Elostirion "stuck" looking West - and that a case could be made that Isildur let more stones remain in Gondor precisely BECAUSE be would not be there in person, rather than in spite of.

Very good discussion - and topic!

Gordis

QUOTE (Valandil @ Jun 9 2006, 04:40 AM)

Hey Gordis - it looks like you've picked up on my use of the term "warden" for those responsible for the proper care and feeding of the Palantiri. (at least I don't THINK Tolkien used that word - did he?)
Very good discussion - and topic!


Thanks, Val. I think it is a fascinating topic.

Sad to disappoint you, "warden" is not your term . It is Tolkien's own

Look here, the beginning of the text in UT:


QUOTE
THE PALANTÍRI

The palantíri were no doubt never matters of common use or common knowledge, even in Númenor. In Middle-earth they were kept in guarded rooms, high in strong towers, only kings and rulers, and their appointed wardens, had access to them, and they were never consulted, nor exhibited, publicly. But until the passing of the Kings they were not sinister secrets. Their use involved no peril, and no king or other person authorized to survey them would have hesitated to reveal the source of his knowledge of the deeds or opinions of distant rulers, if obtained through the Stones.

What do you think on Saruman? Did he become enlightened by viewing the files of the Orthank stone?

Valandil

Oops!

I probably DID get that from there, but forgot I had. Thanks for correcting me.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

Just an odd stray thought:

How did Sauron manage to "sneak up" on Isildur and take Minas Ithil in 3429 of the Second Age?

One day - everyone thinks the guy has been dead for 110 years - the next day, his army is beating down the doors of one of the Kings of Gondor. And Gondor's Kings had all these palantiri with which to survey things all about them.

How did Sauron pull THAT one off?

Gordis

I think Sauron used this "shrouding" possibility, hiding Mordor from the palantiri.

Gandalf said (not of the palantiri but about his "wizard's eyes") that beyond the Shadow all was dark to him. I doubt that any palantir could look beyond Ephel Duath while Sauron was there.

The same question applies to the fall of Fornost in 1974. How could an army come all the way from Carn Dum unobserved? Also - shrouding.