Distribution of the Palantri

[Witch-king of Angmar]

I think the purpose of the palantíri was communication between Amandil and then Elendil with Tol Eressëa and with the others of the Faithful of Númenor. I don’t believe knowledge of the palantíri was ever widely dispersed: Ar-Pharazôn may have known little or nothing, although he might well have been aware that Amandil and Elendil were somehow in contact with the Eldar, making them “spies” in his opinion, an accusation upon which Elendil remarked when Amandil determined to travel to Valinor to ask for mercy for the Faithful. When Elendil went to war in the Last Alliance, I think that regular communication with Avallónë probably came to an end.

Elrond’s removal of the palantír from Elostirion is most significant, in my opinion. It represents in dramatic fashion an end to even the possibility of direct communication between Valinor and Middle-earth. That is an important change, and with it came the end of the Third Age as accounted by the Eldar. I don’t know if Cirdan left on that ship, but Elrond did, Galadriel did, Glorfindel did, Gandalf did, and Elrond took with him the last direct link between Middle-earth and Aman.

By the way, each of these four passengers represents something different in Elvendom.

• Galadriel is the only survivor of the leaders of the Rebellion of the Noldor, redeemed at long last by struggle and self-denial. She has given up all the power and glory that she sought in Middle-earth: she has diminished, but she remains Galadriel, and is at last passing into the West.
  
• Glorfindel is the only one of the great heroes of the First Age to return to Middle-earth after purgation and sanctification to even greater spiritual power than before in order to help lead the long war against elemental evil that was incomplete when he gave up his life in Crissaegrim to save Eärendil and the refugees of Gondolin.
  
• Elrond is the only survivor in Middle-earth of the Half-elven and the rightful claimant in Middle-earth to title of “King of the Noldor.” Gil-galad was the last king, but Elrond was the rightful heir to that title, and when he departed, rulership of those lands he had held passed to Arwen and Aragorn and eventually to their son, Eldarion. Elrond had forgone title, he had forgone the companionship of his wife for centuries, he had forgone his beloved daughter when he departed, and his sons remained in Middle-earth after his departure to an undescribed fate.
  
• Gandalf is the only one of the Istari who remained faithful to his charge, and his departure is his reward for a difficult job well done, but one that required him to give up his own physical life.
  

Though we may decide for ourselves (as far as I know) whether he boarded ship then or later, Círdan had long before denied himself his desire to sail to Valinor so that others might make that journey. And when Gandalf disembarked to begin his labors, Círdan sacrificed the ring Narya to strengthen Mithrandir. He was the last of the leaders of the Eldar in Middle-earth who had awakened in Cuiviénen and remembered the Great Journey.

It isn’t necessarily germane to the topic, but all of these characters achieved what they did by self-denial, self-abnegation, and self-sacrifice. At least four of them departed at once, taking with them all that was left of contact with the Uttermost West, “an end ... for the Eldar of story and of song.”


QUOTE (Gordis)
[And] what about his mom, dad and his wife?
I think he wouldn't have missed the opportunity to say hi to them if it were possible.


I think that was a deliberate decision on Elrond’s part: otherwise, his longing for the West might have become unbearable.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

CAB

I think that most likely the vision of Elbereth was a stored image. It reminds me of when Pippin looked in the Orthanc stone and saw all nine riders in the air around Barad-dur until one conveniently covered the entire viewing area. It would be quite a coincidence if that just happened to be taking place as he looked in the palantir.

Also, communication via the Emyn Beraid palantir seems unlikely to me, at least at the time of the Lord of the Rings. I can recall no mention of any such communication with Valinor. At the very least, it would be reasonable for the Elves to seek advice from the Valar after (or better still, just before) the Council of Elrond. There were scouts sent all over the place just after the council, but there is no indication that any were sent to consult the palantir.


Alcuin, I think that your table concerning the distances between the palantir was very nicely done and is quite interesting. Thank you for posting it. Also, you made some excellent observations about the four characters departing at the end of the Third Age. Do you have an opinion on why Celeborn stayed behind. I think I can understand why Elrond’s sons stayed, but Celeborn is another matter.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

CAB, great to see you back - and the fact that you support my POV against Val and Alcuin is cheering. These two guys are quite formidable opponents...

Good observation about the nine nazgul in the air circling around the Tower. Must be a sort of Barad-Dur logo - perhaps accompanied by ominous music?. Interesting what Orthanc stone showed to Sauron - probably a giant white hand?

Alcuin, good observaitions about the Elves. I have an impression that the Elves who haven't been to Valinor (Cirdan, Celeborn, Elrond), unlike the Calaquendi, don't show much longing for it. [Here I stay with Celeborn as a kinsman to Thingol - always liked this idea much more than the later version of "Teleporno"]

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

CAB, when Lord of the Rings was written and until the very end of Tolkien’s life, Galadriel was a leader of the rebellious Noldor in the tales, and Celeborn her consort was Sindarin. Toward the very end of his life, he decided to change the story so that Galadriel had innocent reasons for leaving Valinor, and that Celeborn was Teleporno of Alqualondë. Like Gordis, I have a strong preference for the older line of the story: it makes more sense, and it is, I think, the richer storyline.

The end of Lord of the Rings when Sam says “Well, I’m back,” wasn’t originally the end of the story. There was a final chapter, “The Epilogue”, that you can find in Sauron Defeated or The End of the Third Age. (The second book has all the LotR material in it, but none of the Númenor material.) In that lost chapter, Sam explains to his now-teenage daughter Elanor that
QUOTE
The Lady [Galadriel] came to [Celeborn’s] land and now she is gone; and he has the land still. When he tires of it he can leave.

Later Celeborn left Lórien and went to live in Rivendell with his grandsons, Elladan and Elrohir. Middle-earth was his home, and he was reluctant to leave.

Upon reflection, I don’t think Elrond was happy to be going to Aman. For him, Aman was exile from Middle-earth that had always been his home. As the descendents of Elros envied the Eldar, I suspect that Elrond sometimes longed for the escape from Arda his brother had chosen. But he no longer had any choice: all the effects of time that had been delayed in the Third Age through his use of the ring Vilya now came upon him, just as the effects of Bilbo’s age came upon him when the One Ring was destroyed. In a way, Elrond was going to Aman to become “embalmed” in a place where he would remain essentially unchanged, or changed very slowly; but everything else there changed very slowly, too. Not a pleasant prospect for a Elda from Middle-earth, which was a happening kind of place.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

CAB

Thank you Gordis. I am glad to be back.

Concerning Celeborn staying in Middle Earth, I think reluctance to leave his home (as the “Celeborn”, rather than “Teleporno” character) is a good answer. But what about Elrond then? Why did he leave so quickly? Looked at from a story-external perspective, it is clear that Elrond had to take ship at the end of the story with the others. But what is the best story-internal reason? A sudden weariness with the loss of the ring’s power, the necessity of relinquishing full authority to Aragorn immediately, maybe (like the story-external reason, as I see it) as a required (by the Valar or by his own wisdom) symbol of the arrival of the time of Men in Middle Earth?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

I think sudden weariness at the loss of the Ring's power is a good explanation. All the three Ring-holders became addicted to their Rings, which they were using for 3000 years (2000 for Gandy). Even Frodo, who wore the Ring for only 18 years, felt bereft without it: the world seemed empty to him. The others must have felt it much more.

Then, I think, since Celebrian left, Elrond wished to join her. Elves are rather attached to their spouses. Only he had things to do in ME and couldn't leave then.

Now, had his children chosen to follow him, he would have left happy, I think. It was not to be...

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

Alcuin - I had sent the following to you in a PM before:


QUOTE
Almost all the palantiri were placed in towers - all that we can be sure of except the one at Osgiliath (which was in the "Dome of Stars" on the Great Bridge). This possibly extended the viewing range. A Palantir might have been the main reason a tower would be built! I suspect Annuminas had a tower - probably Fornost too.



I found that I was mistaken. In the Appendix A account of Gondor's history, at the point where Castamir drives Eldacar from Osgiliath, it says:


QUOTE
"... In that seige and burning the Tower of the Stone of Osgiliath was destroyed, and the palantir was lost in the waters."



So - I stand corrected. The palantir of Osgiliath was also atop a tower - so the Dome of the Stars must have been on top of a tower.

A dome on a tower on a bridge over a great river... must have been an AWESOME sight!!

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Val, you sure the Tower of the Dome of the Stars was atop the bridge? (I don't say it was not so, only I don'r remember)... How come the bridge hadn't collapsed?

Valandil

QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 4 2006, 08:17 AM)
Val, you sure the Tower of the Dome of the Stars was atop the bridge? (I don't say it was not so, only I don'r remember)... How come the bridge hadn't collapsed?


You know - I seem to remember reading that, but I haven't found it yet. I'll keep looking. However, I DID find a quote that there were houses and towers on the bridge.

From "Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age":

QUOTE
"... The chief city of this southern realm was Osgiliath, through the midst of which the Great River flowed; and the Numenoreans built there a great bridge, upon which there were towers and houses of stone wonderful to behold, and tall ships came up out of the sea to the quays of the city."


By "How come the bridge hadn't collapsed?" - I take it you don't mean ultimately - since it did collapse in 1437 of the Third Age - but why it wouldn't collapse under the weight it initially held.

I would just say it was designed to support all that weight. Arches are wonderful things. I should do a few conceptual sketches of the Osgiliath Bridge one day - it must have been tremendous!

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

I always thought the great Bridge of Osgiliath was a reflection of the real-world London Bridge, which had houses and shops on it when King Ethelred burned it in AD 1013 to prevent the Danes from entering the city. (It is thought that this is how the children’s song originated, “London bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down…”) A reconstructed bridge during the Middle Ages was famed for its first-floor shops with dwelling above them as well, with people traveling to London to see a sight to be found nowhere else in Europe.

By the way, the medieval London Bridge was sturdily built to bear all that weight. It was so sturdily built that it disrupted the flow of the Thames River, acting as a sort of dam: the water level on one side was sometimes as much as 6 feet above that on the other. It was not possible to take a boat under the bridge in such conditions: the boat and all its passengers and contents would be sunk. There was a little proverb that went with this: “It is for wise men to pass over, and for fools to pass under.” Those traveling the river had to disembark on one side of the bridge, and return to another vessel on the other side.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

He-he. very interesting, Alcuin.

I think building houses (not high towers with Palantiri ) on bridges was common in Middle ages. Pont Neuf (the New Bridge) in Paris, which is, actually, the oldest of the existing bridges (it was built in 1600), originally held houses on both sides. Later they were demolished, but it was a blessing - because of them the bridge is 20 meters wide and useful for traffic even now.

Valandil

QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 7 2006, 05:10 PM)
I think building houses (not high towers with Palantiri ) on bridges was common in Middle ages...

But this isn't the Middle Ages we're talking about... and it IS the Numenoreans, who otherwise built some pretty amazing things!