Distribution of the Palantri

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

While counseling Frodo before his departure from Rivendell, Elrond remarked that “the Shadow” had crept near the mountains, and that “under the Shadow all is dark to me.” Galadriel said that she was never able to determine Gandalf’s whereabouts unless he entered Lothlórien because “a grey mist is about him.” When Eorl led the Éothéod to Gondor’s rescue at the Field of Celebrant, a fog surrounded him and his men as they approached Lórien: it apparently prevented watchers in Dol Guldur from perceiving his movements. (Eorl entered the fog despite his misgivings and those of his men because he trusted his horse, Felaróf the mearh.) Galadriel told Frodo that although Sauron sought to see her and understand her mind and purposes, he was unable to do so.

I think the notion of “shrouding” or “magically” concealing oneself and one’s movements was probably a usual precaution and normal procedure for many of the Wise. In her mirror, Galadriel had a means of observing others similar in some respects to the palantíri. We might interpret Elrond’s words in much the same way. We know Sauron possessed the palantír from Minas Ithil. After the fight against the wolves (was this at the ruins of Ost-in-Edhil, perhaps within the very ring of stones that was once the House of the Mírdain?), “the weather changed… almost as if it was at the command of some power … that wished to have a clear light in which things … could be seen from far away.” This was after Boromir told the Company concerning the snow on Caradhras that Sauron was reputed to control the weather in the Ephel Dúath, and Gandalf seemed to agree.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Yes, exactly. Very good observation about the weather on Caradhras.

And it seems that shrouding is not a too difficult magical operation.

Of course, shrouding the whole areas and large armies needed much Power, but I deem both Sauron and the Witch-King had it enough. I don't think Isildur or Denethor or Saruman saw much in Mordor, unless the Dark Lord wished to show it.
The same way, I don't think the Kings of Arthedain had a clear view of Angmar.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

I’d like to ask all of you to take a minute to think about the “marginal note” to which Christopher Tolkien refers in footnote 18 of “The Palantíri” in Unfinished Tales.

I’m doing some work on the palantíri and their history, disposition, and effect upon the history of Middle-earth within the Legendarium. As part of my research, I’ve developed a table that includes every site in which we know a palantír was seated, and many other important sites that are likely to have been viewed by surveyors within Tolkien’s tales, and especially in The Lord of the Rings. I’ve worked out the distances in miles between each site, and I think I’ve found a problem with the notion that

QUOTE
for distant viewing there was a “proper distance,” varying with the Stones, at which distant objects were clearer. The greater palantíri could look much further than the lesser; for the lesser the “proper distance” was of the order of five hundred miles, as between the Orthanc-stone and that of Anor. “Ithil was too near, but was largely used for [illegible words], not for personal contacts with Minas Anor.”

In this table, grey areas are for the seats of palantíri that belonged to the Dúnedain. The light blue areas are all the places that could be surveyed at 500 miles ±150 miles (350 – 650 miles). The green areas are the only Númenórean sites that could be surveyed within this range by other Dúnedain strongholds. A glance at the table will reveal that there is only one such site, Orthanc. (Orthanc is also, on a straight-line basis, closer to Amon Sûl than to Minas Anor; however, travel by any means other than flying would mean that Minas Anor was a closer journey.)



The “so what?” of this is that, if Tolkien holds to his marginal note, none of the smaller stones (except the Orthanc-stone) is useful for “personal contacts” within either kingdom with any stone other than one of the great stones, and then only if the great stones can resolve images closer as well as farther than the smaller stones.

I don’t think anybody else has ever before worked out these distances in this context. I doubt that if Tolkien had worked them out that he would have retained this notion: it simply does not make the palantíri useful for good communication or command and control.

Marginal notes come in a lot of flavors. There’s Fermat’s Last Theorem which was a marginal note in a book he was reading: that was pretty serious marginal note. I make marginal notes in my copies of Tolkien, and I suspect they’re of much less impact to human understanding of the universe. I’ve also written my homework assignments in the margins of textbooks, and I’ve even seen people put shopping lists in the margins.

I think the marginal note referred to in footnote 18 is an idea that Tolkien was working on. I hope that it isn’t and doesn’t become settled canon in the community, because I can’t figure out why it would be useful to Tolkien. I think he’s working it out from the distances between Orthanc and Minas Tirith, and Orthanc and Barad-dûr, which average 514 miles. I used a computer to calculate distances; Tolkien was using a ruler, and 500 miles is a good estimate by that means. I calculated them for 17 sites, but I think he only estimated for 3 or 4. He might also have wanted to show that Denethor wasn’t in “personal contact” with Sauron: the distance between Minas Tirith and Barad-dûr is only about 200 miles.

I can’t control what Tolkien wrote: if it’s there, it’s there. But I think this particular marginal note is a very poor rule of thumb, and I seriously doubt that Tolkien would have kept it had he realized what the implications were. I think he would have dropped it as he dropped many other notions that he explored as he developed Middle-earth. As we look at the palantíri and what Tolkien wrote about them, we need to be aware of the weakness introduced into the value and usefulness of the stones from this marginal note.

I am deeply troubled by what I have found using the table of distances, and as I write this, I say again that I believe that the rule in the marginal note is not something Tolkien would have retained had he realized its implications.

-|-

Added:
This table would make the Orthanc-stone the single-most important seat for any palantír in either kingdom, and demonstrates that Orthanc might be the central Númenórean fortress: a hinge, if you will, upon which the two kingdoms hang. If the marginal rule is held, Orthanc is the only place from which nearly all of the northwest of Middle-earth of interest to the Dúnedain could be readily surveyed.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Great observations, Alcuin. I can`t help but agree with you.
This marginal note is not the best... I hope it was sort of abandoned later.
If it was not, then the importance of Isengard becomes paramount.

It is also not at all believable that the Gondoreans would have abandoned Orthanc to Saruman (or to Dunlandings before that) so easily, even regardless of the Palantir there. It is the only fortress (in pair with Aglarond) guarding the major strategic point in the West of ME - the only easy pass through the Misty mountains into Eriador. With Angrenost disregarded, any invasion (Wainraiders, Balkhots etc. could have reached Lebennin, Dol Amroth and the South-Western Gondor without having to pass by Minas Tirith.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the White Counsil almost begged Saruman to take over Orthank back in 2700-ies. With the Gap od Rohan unguarded by Gondor anymore, both Rivendell and the Grey Havens became an easy prey for invasion from the East. Gondor and Rohan were estranged from the Elves by this time, so Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond etc. had to take care of the Gap of Calenardon themselves.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

QUOTE (Gordis @ Aug 4 2006, 05:23 PM)
...
It is also not at all believable that the Gondoreans would have abandoned Orthanc to Saruman (or to Dunlandings before that) so easily, even regardless of the Palantir there. It is the only fortress (in pair with Aglarond) guarding the major strategic point in the West of ME - the only easy pass through the Misty mountains into Eriador. With Angrenost disregarded, any invasion (Wainraiders, Balkhots etc. could have reached Lebennin, Dol Amroth and the South-Western Gondor without having to pass by Minas Tirith.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the White Counsil almost begged Saruman to take over Orthank back in 2700-ies. With the Gap od Rohan unguarded by Gondor anymore, both Rivendell and the Grey Havens became an easy prey for invasion from the East. Gondor and Rohan were estranged from the Elves by this time, so Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond etc. had to take care of the Gap of Calenardon themselves.


Gondor had no other good choice than to make Saruman warden of Angrenost. The hereditary Gondorian chieftains of Angrenost had died out “and command of the fortress had passed into the hands of a family of the people.” This was, however, unknown in Minas Tirith or even in Edoras, and not discovered until trouble had already begun, and Angrenost under the control of the Dunlendings. Neither Gondor nor Rohan were able to dislodge them until they were forced to surrender to King Fréaláf when he besieged them “during the great famine after the Long Winter of 2758–9.” (Both citations Unfinished Tales, “The Battles of the Fords of Isen”, “(ii)”) The keys of Orthanc had been in the hands of the Stewards of Gondor for many centuries, since at least when the Éothéod settled Calenardhon. (Unfinished Tales, “Cirion and Eorl”, “(iii)”)

From Unfinished Tales, “The Battles of the Fords of Isen”, “(ii)”:
QUOTE
It can … be readily understood that when Saruman offered to take command of Isengard and repair it and reorder it as part of the defences of the West he was welcomed by both King Fréaláf and by Beren the Steward. So when Saruman took up his abode in Isengard, … Beren gave him the keys of Orthanc…

There can be little doubt that Saruman made his offer in good faith, or at least with good will towards the defence of the West, so long as he himself remained the chief person in that defence, and the head of its council. He was wise, and perceived clearly that Isengard with its position and its great strength, natural and by craft, was of utmost importance.

The line of Isen, between the pincers of Isengard and the Hornburg, was a bulwark of invasion from the East …, either aiming at encircling Gondor or at invading Eriador. …


Before this, Eriador was quite vulnerable, and had Sauron been able to launch the kind of war he did in 3118, the Gap of Rohan would have been most vulnerable; and during the War of the Ring, it was very nearly the means by which Sauron and Saruman in co-operation with one another nearly destroyed Rohan and Gondor.

I don’t believe I have read much about the alliance between Sauron and Saruman, but I think it definitely existed.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

A first dividend from Hammond and Scull’s Reader’s Companion, p 100

QUOTE
They don’t live in the Shire, but they wander into it in spring and autumn, out of their own lands beyond the Tower Hills – In matter appended to The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle Tolkien speculates that these particular elves ‘since they appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantír pf the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain of Oiolossë…’

So the Eldar were using the stone of Elostirion/Emyn Beraid late into the Third Age: Gildor Inglorion when he and his companions met Frodo, Sam, and Pippin were returning from a kind of pilgrimage.

Here are some things we can deduce from the material:

• The stone was likely not unguarded. If there are people going in and out on pilgrimage, someone has to be there to guard it and maintain the towers.
  
• The stone was in more or less regular use, perhaps semi-annually at the Elvish New Year in April and again in the autumn.
  
• The user of the stone could see not only Tol Eressëa, but with effort, Taniquetil as well.
  
• The Valar were aware of it: Varda made herself available for “photo-ops” on occasion.
  
• The Eldar were engaged in some kind of activity that seems almost religious: are these “pilgrimages” or not? They are not true pilgrimages in that the Eldar do not worship the Valar; but they are clearly made in a worshipful fashion, and the Elves’ singing as they return home is reminiscent of Christian pilgrims singing hymns on their way home.
  
• The Elves lived not only in the valley of Rivendell itself, but in the surrounding country.
  

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Very interesting, Alcuin! By the way, it seems Gildor and Co were regular pilgrims, they were in the Shire in 3001, when Bilbo went away, then they went back to Rivendell:

QUOTE
Tell me, Gildor, have you ever seen Bilbo since he left us?’
Gildor smiled. ‘Yes,’ he answered. ‘Twice. He said farewell to us on this very spot. But I saw him once again, far from here.’ He would say no more about Bilbo, and Frodo fell silent.



Then they were again in the Shire in Sept. 3018 and either returned briefly to Rivendell or stayed in the West, as at the end of the LoTR they were again in the Shire together with Elrond and Galadriel.

"The user of the stone could see not only Tol Eressëa, but with effort, Taniquetil as well."

I am still not convinced. Not necessarily they could see Tol Eressea and speak with the warden of the Palantir there. Perhaps this palantir could only show visions stored on its hard disk long ago: like Feanor, Two Trees and Elbereth.

"The Valar were aware of it: Varda made herself available for “photo-ops” on occasion."
Again it might just be an image stored in the photogallery there.


"The Eldar were engaged in some kind of activity that seems almost religious: are these “pilgrimages” or not? They are not true pilgrimages in that the Eldar do not worship the Valar; but they are clearly made in a worshipful fashion, and the Elves’ singing as they return home is reminiscent of Christian pilgrims singing hymns on their way home."

That is very true. Perhaps the elves in ME had come to worship the Valar since Valinor was removed from the Circles of the World and the Valar became more remote.

"The Elves lived not only in the valley of Rivendell itself, but in the surrounding country"
Hmmm "in or near Rivendell?" Seems somewhat unlikely, as around Rivendell was a high plateau, barren and exposed. Perhaps there were other hidden valleys nearby?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

It’s quite possible that what the Elves were seeing were only “reruns,” but if that were the case, surely these would not be difficult to find. It sounds as if the vision of Elbereth were something granted to the Elvish “faithful” who properly desired their “long home,” as we mortals say. I think they were seeing it “live” and not on “replay,” but I suppose we must let that go until we can find more information to settle the question one way or another.

I think Tolkien was pretty explicit in his view that the Elves did not worship the Valar. That would have been a violation of “the Rules” for the Valar, I believe, so they should have discouraged it; and the Eldar such as Galadriel, in particular, were in no doubt about who and what the Valar were, having received that information from them firsthand. Still, people make real-world supplication of kings and rulers for grants and favor, and there can be little doubt the Elves were seeking the favor of Elbereth, in particular, with whom they seemed to have shared a special rapport.

The rough terrain of the plateau around Rivendell is not something I had considered when I made my remark. But how are we to interpret Tolkien’s own words that “were Elves living in or near Rivendell”? Perhaps they lived further down the valley? Or as you suggest, in another valley? The Hobbit says of the plateau that there were

QUOTE
…unexpected valleys, narrow with deep sides, that opened suddenly at their feet, and they looked down surprised to see trees below them and running water at the bottom. There were gullies that they could almost leap over; but very deep with waterfalls in them. There were dark ravines that one could neither jump nor climb into.


Elrond seems to have been able to raise some sort of armed force in times of need, and perhaps this was from a broader region than his one little valley. If so, that would explain in part how Rivendell was defended: perhaps the plateau was like Nargothrond’s Guarded Plain: travelers and interlopers alike were noted by the Elves, and the unwelcome driven away or misled if they came too near.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Consider this, Alcuin.

Suppose you are right and the Palantir at Elostirion indeed permitted real-time conferences with Tol Eressea.

Then who among the Elves would be most likely to come and have regular peeks in it?
Elrond, I would say.He had his mother Elwing there, his father Earendil there (part-time at least) and, more importantly, his wife Celebrian there. Wouldn't he wish to go talk with them occasionaly? But no, it seems Elrond has not been to the west of ME for a very long time:

QUOTE
Of the tales that we have heard this day the tale of Frodo was most strange to me. I have known few hobbits, save Bilbo here; and it seems to me that he is perhaps not so alone and singular as I had thought him. The world has changed much since I last was on the westward roads.
`The Barrow-wights we know by many names; and of the Old Forest many tales have been told: all that now remains is but an outlier of its northern march. Time was when a squirrel could go from tree to tree from what is now the Shire to Dunland west of Isengard. In those lands I journeyed once, and many things wild and strange I knew. But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside. He is a strange creature, but maybe I should have summoned him to our Council.'



Instead, who comes often to look into the Palantir?: Gildor the High (Calaquendi) Elf and other High Elves with him. The ones who presumably crave for the visions of Valinor as it was once known to them.

I think they watch replays from the time of the Trees - things interesting for them, but not so much for Elrond or Cirdan who were born in ME and have never been to Valinor.

Also, we are not really told how easy it was to watch the stored replays. Palantiri knew if the one who looked in them was a rightful user, so they could detect Elendil's descendants, Calaquendi Elves etc. I think there might be some selectivity in allowing people the access to the Hard Disk. Probably a maia or a Calaquendi Elf could see Elbereth in Valinor, but the vision was denied to Men.

Gandalf said he wished to see the image of Feanor and the Two Trees, but we don't know if he managed to get access to the pics. Probably not.
Perhaps one had to know a lot just to be able to turn a stone from "observation" and cellphone" modes into "replay" mode.

What if the Elostirion stone was stuck in the replay mode? To mortals it gave views of only the pics allowed to Men: The sea? Maybe Numenor as it once have been and its Downfall? While the Elves could see the earlier stored images: Valinor, Tol Eressea etc.?

Pity we know so very little...

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

We know that it did not show Númenor even to Elendil,
QUOTE
Elendil set it there so that he could look back with ‘straight sight’ and see Eressëa in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Númenor forever.

The term “‘straight sight’” recalls the ‘Straight Road’ the Eldar traveled to Tol Eressëa, the object of Elendil’s longing; but if they were images of the past that the stone displayed, Númenor should also have been visible, not covered by the “bent seas”. Moreover, these are “the bent seas below”: below the ‘Straight Road’, I should think. That would indicate that these are “live” images, not Memorex.

The stone of Emyn Beraid had become an object of reverence to the Eldar, where they could look back to their home. But Valinor was not the home of either Círdan or of Elrond: Elrond, in particular, seems to have been loathe to leave, and did so only because as Aragorn foresaw,
QUOTE
‘“But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth.”

I do not believe that Elrond looked forward to his taking ship to Tol Eressëa: it was to him almost as a sentence of death, where he must now endure for the ages the choice he made long before.

Gordis

Ang what about his mom, dad and his wife?
I think he wouldn't have missed the opportunity to say hi to them if it were possible.