Storms at Weathertop. Shadow IV- Discussion Thread

[Valandil]

gordis said:

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Val - check Angmar's latest post. It seems in Angmar Gandalf passed for an old madman. ;D

Saw it - but I was thinking G could probably stay inconspicuous enough to avoid being included in a report. Are there none other in Angmar besides soldiers and civil servants? No regular people?

Though for the story's sake, I don't mind it.

[Gandalf]

gordis said:

duilin said:

Galphant just took a stab at it...

Ha - let us see how the cryptic Gandy wriggles out of this one!
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I think this old man wriggled out sufficiently well (crafty fellow that I am) - don't you?

[Gimilbeth]

Well well... and what does this crafty old fellow want with poor ussss?



Just a brief note and calculations about Gimilbeths's ancestors:

Azrabel - great-great-great grandfather b. 825. Queen Beruthiel was probably Azrabel's aunt. In 933 Umbar taken by Earnil I of Gondor and the Great Temple destroyed.

Azrathon - great-great-grandfather - b. 905, executed by Cyriandil during "the bloodbath of year 1000."
Azrathon's brother, High priest of Melkor, b. 910, executed in 1050.

Neithan - great-grandfather - b. 996. Took this name (the Wronged) after the Gondorians ordered to take names in Sindarin. ;D

Serinde - grandmother - b.1126. This is Quenia - also an attempt to spite the invaders. Serinde married her third cousin, also descended from Azrabel. d.1346

Inzilbeth (Emeriel) - mother - b. 1195. The name regulations have became lax - a Sindarin name was given at birth but seldom, if ever, used. Married Tarnendur of Rhudaur. Died in childbirth in 1256.

Gimilbeth (Menelien) born 1240

Please have a look. If agreed upon, I will post it in the Characters info thread.

[Valandil]

I don't expect Gandalf will want to do more than make small talk with Gimilbeth - if even that. He just wants to be 'present' with her. Maybe to get a better feel - or to try to win her trust - or even - have you heard the saying: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."? Well... not exactly like that, but he certainly has an interest in her (as a part of the royal family of a daughter kingdom of Arnor) - and has reason to believe she has fallen into use of the Black Arts. He's concerned about her - and hopes to eventually lead her back, if possible.

I believe she gives Incanus credit for too much though - he didn't even arrive in Middle Earth until around 1000 - maybe 1004 to be exact, if we treat my "Visitors Come to Court" as canon. ;D

Saruman though, may have been in Gondor by 1000 - delighting in the greatest heights of that land. Maybe he would have encouraged excesses against some of their conquered subject lands.

[Galphant]

Yeah, that stuff definitely sounds more like Saruman's style than Gandalf's.

So, guys, I've had an unlikely, but potentially interesting, idea floating around in my head ever since I realized that Gimilbeth is about the same age as Galphant. I don't think I've mentioned anything about Galphant's wife as yet. So he could just as easily be a widower as a married man...

The essential idea is that Galphant would be persuaded by Hador, his eminence grise, that it would be a canny political move to seek a marriage with Gimilbeth. I don't think Galphant is the sort to become besotted with Gimilbeth, à la Barund, so the whole thing would be purely mercenary, but I thought it might add some spice to any Galphant/Gimilbeth interactions. The match seems plausible enough on paper - they're both he House of Baranduin is as noble as any house in Arnor besides that of Isildur himself, and obviously it would both "of a certain age," it would be useful for Galphant's claims to be married to a member of the house of Isildur. Potentially, an alliance with Rhudaur would be useful for Galphant's claims to the throne - I kind of envision Hador, at least, as seeing the threat of a vast army of hillmen descending on Cardolan as an appropriate deterrent to Malvegil (the Cardolanis, of course, do not know the real situation with Broggha, or how weak Tarnendur really is). And there would be at least some reason for Gimilbeth to consider it, or at least not rule it out out of hand - Galphant might be in a position to help Rhudaur, especially if he becomes king. The big problem I have is with what must surely be considerable animosity between Cardolan and Rhudaur, especially as deriving from the massacre.

Anyway, you guys let me know if you think it's at all plausible...I've still got some preparatory work to do on this score with regards to stuff Aegnor learns from Barund, and Duilin and Thurisind learn from Hurgon. (The conflicting information about Gimilbeth to be gotten from those sources should be amusing.)

[Duilin]

Obviously, the above was me.

[Gimilbeth]

That sounds interesting, Duilin. Let us have some "marriage planning", then. Gimilbeth will play along. ;D


About Gandalf - I laughed writing this. Good thinking, Duilin and Val. Of course Incanus of 900-ies was Saruman - but the two in time had blended into one. So Gimilbeth is quite afraid of the evil spy Incanus. ;D

[Valandil]

Gordis - I don't think even Saruman would have arrived before 1000 - at least not by much (unless we take the description at the one part of Appendix B very loosely - see the second paragraph of 'The Third Age' section there).

Gordis & Duilin both: one thing about a possible Galphant-Gimilbeth matchup - will it really get Gimilbeth what she wants? Also - would it basically nullify any potential gains of a Beleg-Tarniel match? Just something to think about...

[Duilin]

In terms of Saruman and Gandalf's arrival, my sense is with Valandil that all of the Istari arrived around 1000. But there might be information in Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales which suggests otherwise. It's easily modified, in any case.

In terms of the Galphant-Gimilbeth match-up, I will say that I wasn't really considering one way or the other whether Gimilbeth will actually be terribly interested. Just that Galphant and Hador might plausibly think she might be. At the very least, it puts another ball in the air to put pressure on Malvegil for the alternative match - i.e., Rhudaur can go to Cardolan for help if help from Arthedain is not forthcoming, and possibly mess up Malvegil's plans for Cardolan in the process. Also, I don't think such a marriage would be an actual deal breaker for Arthedain, since it doesn't necessarily mean that Rhudaur will support Galphant's claims - such a marriage would be unwelcome, but not necessarily disastrous for Arthedain. And the Arthedain folks won't know for certain that it's not a love match, presumably.

So, anyway, it seems like there'd be reason for Gimilbeth to drag it along, if she so inclined. Whether she's actually interested in actually going to the stage of a match is up to Gordis, of course. (Also, given her distaste for Tarniel, getting military help by a political marriage of her own, at the cost of spiking her sister's marriage, might actually be welcome). I think ultimately their goals are probably incompatible, and obviously ultimately they aren't going to get married, but it might be fun to toy with for a while.

[Gordis]

duilin said:

In terms of Saruman and Gandalf's arrival, my sense is with Valandil that all of the Istari arrived around 1000. But there might be information in Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales which suggests otherwise. It's easily modified, in any case.

Well, it is canon that Saruman had arrived the first and Gandalf the last (UT) and all came around 1000(LOTR). Later Tolkien toyed with the idia that all of the Istari came in the Second age - but I don't want to introduce this conception here - as it contradicts the Tale of Years.

OK, I have edited the post taking away Incanus's activities in 933, but leaving his deeds of 1050. It may have been Saruman, or it may have been Gandalf, or both together. It was enough for the Istar to sniff out the Temple - and the result was wholly in the hands of the Gondorian authorities.

This Incanus, the accursed Northern spy, the ancient wanderer who had reportedly known Gimilbeth’s great-great-grandfather, now needed to be led to a warm corner? Wasn’t he the very same man who, back in 1050, had sniffed out the cleverly hidden Dark Temple, sending Gimilbeth’s great-great-uncle, the High Priest of Melkor, to the execution block?

About Gimilbeth I will reply later -= got to go.