Val's "History" discussion thread

[Gordis]

Val, it is great that you have finally posted your story here.
Great job!

I decided to open a special thread for nitpicking. ;D -but first I have to read it again...

[Gordis]

Ok read first two chapters.

Loved the layout of Annuminas versus Fornost – very believable. And the dates seem to be flawless throughout.


Now my first nitpicks about chapters 1 and 2:

“On some occasions, a High King would summon a full council, including those of Gondor, when he intended to lay himself down and allow his son to take the throne, that all might be present for that moment, usually just before a High Day, that the new King could lead in its celebration.”
That has puzzled me. IIRC no king since Tar-Ciryatan and until Aragorn has laid himself down and passed the Sceptre on before his death.

“There were lesser nobles among the ships from the other regions of Numenor; Forostar, Orrostar, Mittalmar, Hyarnustar and Hyarrostar, as well as from the noble families of Romenna.”
I have an impression that the bulk of the Faithful (if not all) were from Andunie – with maybe just a few stray ones from other regions. Maybe you would consider adding “a few lesser nobles”?

“building also the Bridge of Stonebows, the bridge over Hoarwell, the Tower of Amon Sul”
It may be a bit confusing for those who don’t know the geography well.
I suggest: “the bridge of Stonebows over the Baranduin, Last Bridge over the Hoarwell,”

“He sailed three times to the south, to view the lands of Gondor and to require the allegiance of Numenorean settlers in Umbar and further southern lands.”

THAT I find hard to believe. The Umbarians were hostile, as were those further South, and would have killed any Faithful who dared to show up requiring the allegiance. Elendil had no fleet, save his 4 old battered ships, while the guys in Umbar had their shipping almost intact, as Umbar was a very good harbour and had withstood the wave. The Black Numenoreans ruled Harad (Fuinur and Herumor) and could bring an army to help their kin any time. I doubt any of the Elendili ever showed their noses beyond Poros before Tarannon times.

“After this, Ar-Pharazon, hoping to hold the family of Andunie to himself, required Elendil to take one of his kin as wife for Anarion – the daughter of the Lord of Romenna, who was also Captain of Ships for all Numenor. In this he was foiled, for she proved to be in secret herself among the Faithful”

How can a girl brought up in a family of King’s Men and Morgoth worshippers become Faithful on her own? She wouldn’t even know the doctrine. Likely she would be repulsed by dark, bloody rituals and the obsession with Death, but she would not know where to turn, before someone enlightened her. Much more psychologically credible would be the idea that she turned Faithful after marrying Anarion and entering Elendil's family– this way she could have become “more faithful then faithful themselves” ;D as often happens with new religious recruits.

“Valandil was buried at Tyrn Gorthad.”Hmm… do you realise Val, that a wight might later be using your old bones to walk around?

“Warden of Elostirion of Emyn Beraid,”I would think these Wardens were Elvish, not human.

“Teleriel was to bear him three sons and two daughters.” “She would bear him three sons and one daughter.” “She would bear him three sons and three daughters.” “His wife was to bear him one son and four daughters”
Too many children, IMHO, Val – if the Royal line is any indication of the general trend among the northern Dunedain. At such a reproduction rate they would have prospered, not dwindled.

“Some considered him weak (though those who knew him best knew that it was not so), even those of his own people, and they began to call him ‘Amlaith’ – which name he accepted as his own.”
I suggest you translate “Amlaith” here - difficult to grasp for an average reader otherwise.

“At his passing, his son would not treat with Cardolan to bury him with his fathers at Tyrn Gorthad, but instead established a tomb for him at the old capital of Annuminas.”
A strange thing to do, as Annuminas was becoming more and more run down and desolate. Leave a royal tomb to plunder? Also you suggest that there were no royal tombs in Annuminas prior to Amlaith’s – so why bury him there, not at Fornost?

“She was in fact the widow of a Count.”
Most unusual for a Dunedain to remarry, especially for a woman.


“Also during his [Malvegil’s] reign, he laid claim to the lands of Cardolan and Rhudaur, as the heirs of Isildur were no more there. Cardolan accepted this, but Rhudaur resisted.”Here you slightly deviate both from Appendix A and our story.
“In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar.–Appendix A.”
The claim was laid at the ascension of Argeleb and it was at this time that Cardolan accepted the claim and Rhudaur resisted. But there is no indication that Cardolan accepted the claim already in Malvegil’s time.

“He was later to marry Mitheiwen ((b. 1332), a young maiden he rescued at this time”
You know, I have become quite fond of Odaragariel’s long and unwieldy name. It gives the girl a personality, something to remember her by. Sounds way more authentic then “Mitheiwen”. And not all the daughters of the House of Hoarwell had to have names starting with “Mithei”

“Once he was king, Arveleg gathered his forces, together with those of Cardolan and help from Lindon, and drove back the enemy.”
I suggest you continue the sentence, including this part from App A: “for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell.” It is very helpful to have the exactly defined kingdom boundaries. Maybe, if we ever get this far in the game, I will make a map…

“Arvedui had fled to the north with a small band of warriors, and with them, he harassed the enemy with guerilla tactics.”
Val, the King had with him two Palantiri – one a very heavy thing, over 500 kg according to my calculations – and both were priceless! What little guerrilla war would have been worth the danger of losing such prize? And loosing it to the enemy who could wreck a havoc with the Stones? I guess Arvedui’s main goal was to save the Palantiri. He fled, as swiftly and secretly as he could.

[Valandil]

Gordis - I'm glad you're re-reading it and enjoying it. However, I didn't really post it to debate all these various issues. Really, it IS some fan-fiction, and in most cases I think there's enough ambiguity that different interpretations are valid. But we've gone over most of that (by email - when I first sent this to you). And - I don't want to do too much debating over all the various points - partly because I don't think I'll change your mind and I don't think you'll change mine! ;D

OTOH - you DID catch some things I need to change. Also - for this version at least, I'm interested in making modifications that work better for our game.

Also - I have not really been continually updating this. It had been completely untouched for 18 months before I made about three changes (level of homage of Gondorian Kings to Arnorian Kings, birth years of Elendil & Isildur, and addition of Emergil with subsequent modifications to Tarenion and Tarnendur). In many other points, my views may have shifted a bit - but I just have not gone through and made those changes as my views have changed. So - some of the document is still pretty 'old' - as far as being part of my earlier conceptions.

So - here I go with some replies:

gordis said:

Ok read first two chapters.

Loved the layout of Annuminas versus Fornost – very believable. And the dates seem to be flawless throughout.

Thank you. I want to get even more graphics done on those, and I try to be very meticulous with the dates.

Now my first nitpicks about chapters 1 and 2:

“On some occasions, a High King would summon a full council, including those of Gondor, when he intended to lay himself down and allow his son to take the throne, that all might be present for that moment, usually just before a High Day, that the new King could lead in its celebration.”
That has puzzled me. IIRC no king since Tar-Ciryatan and until Aragorn has laid himself down and passed the Sceptre on before his death.

I have always taken the quote about Aragorn as somewhat ambiguous regarding just when that practice stopped. For instance - had it EVER occured in the line of Elendil? Tolkien does not really say - either way. I still think it's entirely possible that some of the earlier kings - maybe of both Arnor and Gondor - did this. Their level of being "Faithful" was far higher than that of the Numenorean Kings after Tar-Ciryatan - and I associate the practice with that aspect of their lives.

“There were lesser nobles among the ships from the other regions of Numenor; Forostar, Orrostar, Mittalmar, Hyarnustar and Hyarrostar, as well as from the noble families of Romenna.”
I have an impression that the bulk of the Faithful (if not all) were from Andunie – with maybe just a few stray ones from other regions. Maybe you would consider adding “a few lesser nobles”?

The 'bulk of the Faithful' may well have been of Andunie. But how many in total escaped, how many of those were noble (or would be considered 'noble' in M-E) and what percent of those were from Andunie? 60%? 90%? 95%? And who says? I think there would have been SOME Faithful among the rest of the provinces, and if anything, I think a large amount of the Andunie Faithful would have had the opportunity to emigrate earlier. Part of my thinking too - was to connect each "Prince" (either in Arnor or Gondor) with one of the provinces in Numenor - to sort of represent a 'remnant' saved from each area. And it may have been a somewhat 'lesser' noble - and maybe most were connected somehow by marriage with an Andunie family (ie, Amandil's great-aunt had married the great-grandfather of some Count in Orrostar - and that Count sailed with Elendil and became the Prince of ___).

“building also the Bridge of Stonebows, the bridge over Hoarwell, the Tower of Amon Sul”
It may be a bit confusing for those who don’t know the geography well.
I suggest: “the bridge of Stonebows over the Baranduin, Last Bridge over the Hoarwell,”

Maybe so. In some cases, I was actually trying to be brief! - believe it or not! ;D (I had so much to cover)

“He sailed three times to the south, to view the lands of Gondor and to require the allegiance of Numenorean settlers in Umbar and further southern lands.”

THAT I find hard to believe. The Umbarians were hostile, as were those further South, and would have killed any Faithful who dared to show up requiring the allegiance. Elendil had no fleet, save his 4 old battered ships, while the guys in Umbar had their shipping almost intact, as Umbar was a very good harbour and had withstood the wave. The Black Numenoreans ruled Harad (Fuinur and Herumor) and could bring an army to help their kin any time. I doubt any of the Elendili ever showed their noses beyond Poros before Tarannon times.

We've discussed this before, but I still think there's sufficient room for my viewpoint on it: (1) I think the "King's Men" would have been cowed quite a bit by the destruction of Numenor, and somewhat awed by the escape of Elendil, Isildur and Anarion. (2) There's no evidence that Mordor had any direct help from Umbar or other southlands in the War of the Alliance (and in fact - Ar-Pharazon's Pillar was left to stand at this time and not thrown down until many years later - while Sauron would probably have had them destroy it in those years if they were subject to him. (3) Even while the harbor of Umbar survived, it wouldn't be surprising if all their ships were wrecked.

All-in-all, I think there's plenty of room for my interpretation. And - it doesn't affect our play (unless you want us to go delving into ancient history of Umbar, but that would only be peripheral to our central action).

“After this, Ar-Pharazon, hoping to hold the family of Andunie to himself, required Elendil to take one of his kin as wife for Anarion – the daughter of the Lord of Romenna, who was also Captain of Ships for all Numenor. In this he was foiled, for she proved to be in secret herself among the Faithful”

How can a girl brought up in a family of King’s Men and Morgoth worshippers become Faithful on her own? She wouldn’t even know the doctrine. Likely she would be repulsed by dark, bloody rituals and the obsession with Death, but she would not know where to turn, before someone enlightened her. Much more psychologically credible would be the idea that she turned Faithful after marrying Anarion and entering Elendil's family– this way she could have become “more faithful then faithful themselves” ;D as often happens with new religious recruits.

I suppose there were some in the royal family who were faithful. Remember - families were rather extended - and this may have been a more distant relation to the King, and she may have also had a mother (as had Tar-Palantir) who was raised to be Faithful and married into the royal family. Your alternative is another option, but again, this doesn't affect our play.

“Valandil was buried at Tyrn Gorthad.”Hmm… do you realise Val, that a wight might later be using your old bones to walk around?

Eeek! Eeeeeek and double-EEEEK!

“Warden of Elostirion of Emyn Beraid,”I would think these Wardens were Elvish, not human.

Not me. I thought they were Human - and those Towers part of Arnor.

“Teleriel was to bear him three sons and two daughters.” “She would bear him three sons and one daughter.” “She would bear him three sons and three daughters.” “His wife was to bear him one son and four daughters”
Too many children, IMHO, Val – if the Royal line is any indication of the general trend among the northern Dunedain. At such a reproduction rate they would have prospered, not dwindled.

But - who's to say it was an indication of the general trend. And - I still think the Arnorians must have had some ups as well as downs over the course of their long decline, or they would have almost vanished after a few hundred years instead of a couple thousand. I think they had modest gains from time to time, and then a major setback (like an attack from Angmar, a Great Plague - even all that civil strife among the Three Kingdoms).

“Some considered him weak (though those who knew him best knew that it was not so), even those of his own people, and they began to call him ‘Amlaith’ – which name he accepted as his own.”
I suggest you translate “Amlaith” here - difficult to grasp for an average reader otherwise.

Maybe. But not too many average readers will have gotten nearly so far. Since King's names were in Quenya up to his father, I'm relatively sure that Amlaith must have been given one at birth (along with his son) - so I was just introducing some Quenya names to cover that. (EDIT: Oh wait - I see what you're saying now. But I'm not sure if there's really any general consensus on just HOW to translate 'Amlaith' - so I sort of left that open for a little interpretation as well)

“At his passing, his son would not treat with Cardolan to bury him with his fathers at Tyrn Gorthad, but instead established a tomb for him at the old capital of Annuminas.”
A strange thing to do, as Annuminas was becoming more and more run down and desolate. Leave a royal tomb to plunder? Also you suggest that there were no royal tombs in Annuminas prior to Amlaith’s – so why bury him there, not at Fornost?

But there was really nobody around to plunder it. At least no major enemies - since Cardolan, Rhudaur and Angmar all had to get past Fornost to get there. Guards could be posted for anybody else.

I was sort of following the Egyptian model - with one place where the Kings reigned, and another where they were buried. I think the Arnorians got used to this, when they buried their Kings at Tyrn Gorthad (Barrow Downs) - and I think the one statement in Appendix A is indicative enough of that. And - I think it would not be surprising that they would wish to continue it.

“She was in fact the widow of a Count.”
Most unusual for a Dunedain to remarry, especially for a woman.

Yes - this wasn't part of my original concept, but I added it later. It probably wasn't in the earlier version you got from me, and I think I put it in when I was writing "Visitors". I think this IS unusual, probably singular to Beleg among this line of Kings, but I intended to make a story of it.

Briefly, I think Beleg was fond of this girl much closer to his age when he was a very young man. He knew she would likely marry another though (because he was expected to wait many more years, while she had become quite marriageable) - and was at peace with her marriage to a noble from the far western parts of Arnor (west of Hills of Evendim, but east of Lhun) - where she was from a different noble family. He even maintained good relations with all her kin - both her brother and her husband.

At the Division itself (Beleg was 50 when it happened), Beleg got into some action which he relates in Ch. 3 of "Visitors" - while armies were massing about Annuminas, he fired a long shot and wounded his uncle, Caryontar. He fled the resulting pursuit, but may have been caught, except for the intervention of the brother and husband of this young noblewoman - who were both slain saving him.

Years later - when that time came for him - he married her, and gave titles to her young sons by the first marriage, and to her nephews - sons of her brother.

I was thinking of a couple prominent ladies of the Middle Ages who were married more than once - even to two Kings: I think Eleanor of Aquitaine was one - the other was a wife of Cnut (or Canute) - I don't remember much about that latter, but was her name Matilda?

Anyway... I thought it could be an interesting episode.

“Also during his [Malvegil’s] reign, he laid claim to the lands of Cardolan and Rhudaur, as the heirs of Isildur were no more there. Cardolan accepted this, but Rhudaur resisted.”Here you slightly deviate both from Appendix A and our story.
“In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar.–Appendix A.”
The claim was laid at the ascension of Argeleb and it was at this time that Cardolan accepted the claim and Rhudaur resisted. But there is no indication that Cardolan accepted the claim already in Malvegil’s time.

You're probably right - and maybe I should change that. But I've always thought the process must have begun during Malvegil's reign, because his son DID take the throne with the name Argeleb - starting with the 'Ar'. It's hard to think he would just claim that overnight on his ascension. Maybe even likely that some amount of reunification had already happened, and he confirmed it by this action at his coronation. Again - I doubt he had that name at birth (which I think you agree with - that comment is meant for others who read this).

“He was later to marry Mitheiwen ((b. 1332), a young maiden he rescued at this time”
You know, I have become quite fond of Odaragariel’s long and unwieldy name. It gives the girl a personality, something to remember her by. Sounds way more authentic then “Mitheiwen”. And not all the daughters of the House of Hoarwell had to have names starting with “Mithei”

Yes - I had forgotten I even NAMED the girl in this. And while you've now re-read it, I must confess that I have not done so from start to finish - just read portions here and there. And yes - sometimes I get desperate to come up with a good name. I've made a great number. I even started a list once, of all the names I've created. Too often, I've probably had to resort to 'formula' - but my purpose was to write the stories, and I had to invent names to make that happen.

“Once he was king, Arveleg gathered his forces, together with those of Cardolan and help from Lindon, and drove back the enemy.”
I suggest you continue the sentence, including this part from App A: “for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell.” It is very helpful to have the exactly defined kingdom boundaries. Maybe, if we ever get this far in the game, I will make a map…

Very good suggestion. I may make that addition, and a map could be nice.

“Arvedui had fled to the north with a small band of warriors, and with them, he harassed the enemy with guerilla tactics.”
Val, the King had with him two Palantiri – one a very heavy thing, over 500 kg according to my calculations – and both were priceless! What little guerrilla war would have been worth the danger of losing such prize? And loosing it to the enemy who could wreck a havoc with the Stones? I guess Arvedui’s main goal was to save the Palantiri. He fled, as swiftly and secretly as he could.

Hard to say how much those things weighed. I don't think we're told (are we?) just HOW much larger the 'large' ones are? I have a hard time believing 500 kg - but we're really getting down to opinion. If it was that large, I think they'd have had to destroy it instead of remove it. Unless it walked.

Again - probably part of my earlier concept - just trying to fill in 'why' Arvedui didn't make a greater effort to rejoin the greater part of the refugees. In this version, he's trying to draw off some pursuit from the rest and save more of his people. Maybe they moved their camp every day or two, but did a few quick hits - either to waylay, or even misdirect their pursuers (OK - we'll circle around and hit them from the west - then we'll get back to camp and travel north for a day - it looks like snow, so hopefully that will cover our retreat).

- - - - - - -

So - I mostly wanted to give background to other players, and any other reader we have out there (say - does this site have lurkers?). Thanks very much for the close attention though, and for taking the time to both read and comment.

[Duilin]

I was thinking of a couple prominent ladies of the Middle Ages who were married more than once - even to two Kings: I think Eleanor of Aquitaine was one - the other was a wife of Cnut (or Canute) - I don't remember much about that latter, but was her name Matilda?

Emma of Normandy married Ethelred the Unready, and then Canute. She was the grand-aunt, or something, of William the Conqueror, whose claim to the English throne derived rather dubiously from her. Eleanor of Aquitaine had indeed married Louis VII of France, whom she divorced, before marrying Henry II.

There's some other good medieval examples of this. Joan of Kent married Sir Thomas Holland and had several sons by him. After his death in 1360, she remarried to the Black Prince, eldest son and heir apparent to King Edward III. King John's wife Isabella remarried to Hugh of Lusignan, and Catherine of Valois, Henry V's wife, did the same to Owen Tudor (from whom the Tudors descended). In all these cases, the uterine brothers of the king were granted honors and titles which were often resented by the rest of the nobility.

[Valandil]

Thanks Duilin - I knew it was something like that!

Gordis - I gave too abbreviated an answer on the question about who were Wardens of the Stone at Elostirion.

From early in Appendix A, start of second paragraph under "ERIADOR, ARNOR, AND THE HEIRS OF ISILDUR":

"At its greatest Arnor included all Eriador, except the regions beyond the Lune, and the lands east of Greyflood and Loudwater...."

This indicates that the lands west of the Lune/Lhun River were held by the Elves of Lindon, and those east of that River belonged to the Men of Arnor. Elostirion and Emyn Beraid were east of the River Lhun.

Further, "OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE" says of the Numenoreans (of Elendil):

... towers they raised upon Emyn Beraid and upon Amon Sul...

I think somewhere, the question is raised of whether Elendil built the ones at Emyn Beraid, or if Gil-Galad built them for him - but even in building them FOR HIM, it implies that they were part of Arnor, right?

So... it wasn't just that I THOUGHT they were a part of Arnor, and staffed by Arnorians. There's evidence to support it.

[Gordis]

Val, thanks for the answers.

I know we have been discussing some of the questions, but I have forgotten which ones and what was said, as I have lost all my old files on the hard disc of my old computer. Sorry if I was repeating myself.
I know it is a fanfic and I don't really want to make you rewrite it - it is simply that, when I am in my "reviewing mode", I comment on everything I see - an old habit of mine, as reviewing is a large part of my job. As well as reading the reviews of my work - sometimes frustrating, but sometimes helpful - especially when my colleague points at things needing clarification.

Anyway, the next part deals closely with our game -so I continue - don't kill me for it! ;D

Kings of Cardolan at Tyrn Gorthad
Here I am confused - there was talk of Tarnost...Where does Tarnost come into this? Is it even in Cardolan?

Kings of Rhudaur at Brochenridge
I see you don’t want to introduce ICE’s Cameth Brin? - a wise decision, maybe.

Daurnemir

I see it is DaurNemir and we have been using “Dauremir” – mistakenly. It would be better, IMO, to agree on the spelling and change the name either in the RPG or in your fic.

I looked in the Sindarin dictionary here www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/online/sindar/dict-sd-en.html
“daur S. [dˈɑur] n. 1. pause, stop ○ 2. by ext., league (about 3 miles) ◇ UT/279, UT/285
taur I N. [tˈɑur] n. king (only used of the legitimate kings of whole tribes) ◇ Ety/389, Ety/395 ◈ In LotR/IV:IV, Frodo is called [Daur, which might be the mutated form of this word = Cf. aran
taur II S., N. [tˈɑur] n. great wood, forest ◇ Ety/391, S/420, S/438

I guess in your invented name, Val, “Daur-Taur” is “forest” is Sindarin? Or, more likely, “king”? And “Mir” is “jewel”? If so, then Daur-mir or DaurEmir or DaurOmir would be correct. But maybe there is another meaning for “DaurN” or for “nemir?”
Unfortunately I have found only this:
nem N. [nˈɛm] (nemb N.) n. Biol. nose ◇ Ety/376 ;D

So - what do you think? I opt for "Dauremir" (but I am an interested party - I tremble at the idea to search for all "Daurs" in the RPG ) And I know DaurN has the priority.


Thank you, Val, for editing the Rhudaur's history to accommodate out RPG facts: Ermigil etc.

There is one question that I think needs discussing - Tarenion's and sons money situation and Tarnendur's life in Gondor.

Saved by a servant, the child Tarenion could hardly take any valuables with him, so all the family in Gondor would have been poor and needed jobs to survive.
That's why I think Tarnendur couldn't have led the life of a scholar and gentleman of leisure. - not all his life.

And it also clashes with the facts given in the game. We have already mentioned Tarnendur's former exploits in the Eastern army of Gondor, led by Minalcar the future King.
This led to Tarnendur's friendship with Minalcar (who was after all very nice to think of his friend's daughter as a possible bride for his son, the future Heir of Gondor). It would be hard to explain if the 2 men only knew each other socially.

Also, in this campaign Tarnendur met Sarador - who saved his life:
It was widely known that Sarador, once a field surgeon in King Romendacil's army, preferred amputation to all other methods of healing. [...] King Tarnendur, however, held Sarador in high esteem, ever since years ago the young surgeon saved the young Rhudaurian prince from certain death, after a spear wielded by a savage golden-haired Northman pierced his chest, leaving the barbed head inside.

I guess it might have happened in 1238. After this wound, young Tarnendur needed a year to recover in a wholesome sea climate. He might have gone to visit Belfalas and Umbar - where he met Inzilbeth and married her around 1238-9. They settled in Osgiliath. Likely he prolonged his leave till Gimilbeth was born and had stayed home for some years - but then he should have been present for the final clash with the Northmen and Easterlings in 1248:
In the days of Narmacil I [Easterling] attacks began again, though at first with little force; but it was learned by the regent that the Northmen did not always remain true to Gondor, and some would join forces with the Easterlings, either out of greed for spoil, or in the furtherance of feuds among their princes. Minalcar therefore in 1248 led out a great force, and between Rhovanion and the Inland Sea he defeated a large army of the Easterlings and destroyed all their camps and settlements east of the Sea. He then took the name of Rómendacil.-Appendix A

After 1248 there was peace, so Tarnendur could have been leaving in Osgiliath leading the life of a gentleman and scholar, but still receiving his army salary. Alternatively, he may have got some civil job in Minalcar's government.
Sounds OK?

[Valandil]

Hi Gordis - Nah, I don't really mind. I just didn't want to do TOO much debating over it again.

Should I send you some of our previous emails on it? If so, PM me your best email address for it, if that's changed.

Harnost (not Tarnost) / Tyrn Gorthad - Cameth Brin / Brochenridge: Maybe you missed it, but I acknowledged that I had forgotten to change those. I could do whichever. Harnost was a later concept of mine that I hadn't inserted yet. I've always been a little leery of Cameth Brin. I could make those changes though. Or you could edit them in.

Daurnemir / Dauremir: I hadn't noticed - were we really spelling it the one way? We haven't made much mention of him even, have we? I sort of like it with the 'n' - but don't want to always be troublesome. Could dropping the 'n' be on account of a regional dialect / accent?

Tarnendur (and Emergil - did I spell THAT right?): I only made the changes I did here very quickly - just to get the thing finally posted for all (esp Duilin) to see. I thought I'd be reliant on you to supply more information, because here's where I'm straying from my earlier concept into yours - and I just threw something in there to at least be saying SOMEthing. So - I can go with about whatever you like. I forget now - was Sarador Tarnendur's first father-in-law? (EDIT: oh wait - that was the doctor who wanted to embalm the one guy - N...??) And yes - a veteran with a civil job of some kind sounds good. Was he a teacher down there? I thought there was something that led me to think 'scholar'...

Really - thanks for the comments, and I don't mind. And don't worry... I'm NOT going to re-write the thing. (or rather - more truly - I will be CONTINUALLY re-writing this thing as I write my stories and the "final" version of what I settle on takes place. That was my plan for this document all along - that it be a living thing, just an outline to guide me until I decide to change it).

And - if you feel so inclined - you could write up YOUR version! ;D

[Valandil]

PS: Would Pelargir make sense for Tarnendur's recovery? Any compelling reason that Inzilbeth's father would need to go/be there, and would take some family along? Or at least meet Tarnendur there and start working up an arrangement? It just seemed better than traveling far and wide, if you have a major wound to recover from. If he meets only her father there, he could return with him to Umbar to meet the daughter, find that he likes her, marry her and return to Osgiliath?

PPS: Did you LIKE the 'Beleg son of Amlaith' story? The episode where he gets to marry the love of his youth? The historical examples I mentioned did so for political gain, I suppose. Beleg's motives were actually more noble, I think: (1) He truly loved her - and (2) To honor her families for their protection of him.

[Duilin]

In terms of Tarnendur's life in Gondor, it's possible he's given a pension of some sort by the king as an heir of Isildur fallen on hard times. This was pretty commonly done for exiled royalty - it's always useful to have a possible pretender in your pocket. Not a huge pension, but perhaps enough of one to live comfortably.

Also, after his brother ascended the throne of Rhudaur in 1254, it's at least possible that he was given some kind of pension by his brother - him being the heir presumptive, and all.

Which brings up another point...was Emergil unmarried, or was he married and childless? Either way, though, with no heir of his own, wouldn't Emergil want to recall his brother to Rhudaur, so that there'd be someone to take over if something happened to him? Perhaps Emergil should have a son who is killed alongside him? Or who even briefly succeeds, but is killed a few months later fighting the same hillmen that killed his father.

[Gordis]

Harnost (not Tarnost) / Tyrn Gorthad - Cameth Brin / Brochenridge: Maybe you missed it, but I acknowledged that I had forgotten to change those. I could do whichever. Harnost was a later concept of mine that I hadn't inserted yet. I've always been a little leery of Cameth Brin. I could make those changes though. Or you could edit them in.

Ah yes… Harnost. It is up to you, Val, but I don’t mind the Cardolan Kings living in Tyrn Gorthad., Nice place .
About Cameth Brin – until now, you don’t have a single ICE/MERP name – and I think it is good for your story. I like the sound of “Cameth Brin”, but is 100 percent ICE. I would advise you to introduce the fortress on the river for Dauremir’s heirs, but call it by your own Sindarin name. Cameth Brin is not Sindarin – Westron most likely. So call it something else: “Orrnost” maybe – to match Fornost and Harnost? Here is my advice, take it or leave it.

Daurnemir / Dauremir: I hadn't noticed - were we really spelling it the one way? We haven't made much mention of him even, have we? I sort of like it with the 'n' - but don't want to always be troublesome. Could dropping the 'n' be on account of a regional dialect / accent?

Nice solution.

Tarnendur (and Emergil - did I spell THAT right?): I only made the changes I did here very quickly - just to get the thing finally posted for all (esp Duilin) to see. I thought I'd be reliant on you to supply more information, because here's where I'm straying from my earlier concept into yours - and I just threw something in there to at least be saying SOMEthing. So - I can go with about whatever you like. I forget now - was Sarador Tarnendur's first father-in-law? (EDIT: oh wait - that was the doctor who wanted to embalm the one guy - N...??)

Here the problem is that we have stolen ERmegil’s name from Celebrindol’s fic. Maybe we should change it? Personally I don’t think Celebrindol would mind, though, given the story of the RPG…
Sarador is the surgeon from the Eastern army of Gondor who had once saved Tarnendur – now the Royal surgeon at Cameth Brin.

PS: Would Pelargir make sense for Tarnendur's recovery? Any compelling reason that Inzilbeth's father would need to go/be there, and would take some family along? Or at least meet Tarnendur there and start working up an arrangement? It just seemed better than traveling far and wide, if you have a major wound to recover from. If he meets only her father there, he could return with him to Umbar to meet the daughter, find that he likes her, marry her and return to Osgiliath?

Inzilbeth’s father and Serinde’s husband is not named – I only guess he was a Black Numenorean in secret. He would not be fond of a Faithful son-in-law. I have always pictured that Tarnendur and Inzilbeth’s marriage was a love-match, where both had disregarded their relatives’ advice and Inzilbeth (brought up in a Black Numenorean family) has become Faithful out of love for Tarnendur.
I think it is better to make Serinde, her husband and Inzilbeth and siblings travel to Osgiliath to spend a winter at the court. Also for some shopping, visiting relatives etc. And there Inzilbeth would meet young Tarnendur, recovering from his wound .
Inzilbeth’s parents won’t be happy as Tarnendur was a Faithful and not a rich man. On the other hand, he was descended from Elros – as this Black Numenorean family had been, and that was a great advantage for guys obsessed with keeping their blood pure.

And yes - a veteran with a civil job of some kind sounds good. Was he a teacher down there? I thought there was something that led me to think 'scholar'...

I don’t think Tarnendur was a teacher, but I like Duilin’s idea about a small pension given by Minalcar to Isildur’s scion and retired Gondor soldier. I also think he might have taken an additional civil job, as the new Regent was his friend –the keeper of (the army?) records for instance? We don’t really need to be precise here.

PPS: Did you LIKE the 'Beleg son of Amlaith' story? The episode where he gets to marry the love of his youth? The historical examples I mentioned did so for political gain, I suppose. Beleg's motives were actually more noble, I think: (1) He truly loved her - and (2) To honor her families for their protection of him.

Yes I liked it – I always enjoy some deviations from dry Tolkien’s family history where nothing unusual happens: no divorces, no remarriages, no adultery. Human history is never that straightforward. Yes, I like it.

And - if you feel so inclined - you could write up YOUR version

Thanks - I trust you to do it! ;D

Duilin: Also, after his brother ascended the throne of Rhudaur in 1254, it's at least possible that he was given some kind of pension by his brother - him being the heir presumptive, and all.

Which brings up another point...was Emergil unmarried, or was he married and childless? Either way, though, with no heir of his own, wouldn't Emergil want to recall his brother to Rhudaur, so that there'd be someone to take over if something happened to him? Perhaps Emergil should have a son who is killed alongside him? Or who even briefly succeeds, but is killed a few months later fighting the same hillmen that killed his father.

As I have mentioned above, we have stolen Ermegil from Celebrimbor’s fic – not out of wickedness, but because we hoped that Cel would join our game. We have wanted to reconcile his history of Cardolan with Val’s. In Cel’s fic, Ermegil was married, had children including male heirs- and all of them got captured and murdered by Hillmen in most horrible ways.

I think we should keep it this way – Ermegil not too interested in his young brother as he had heirs of his own, and Tarnendur never planning to return to Rhudaur at all – before he heard news of his brother’s and nephew’s death. As I have already hinted that Ermegil was a harsh man, disliked by his subjects, maybe his relations with Tarnendur were cold and unfriendly? Perhaps Tarenion and Ermegil desired to return to Rhudaur above all else, while Tarnendur wanted to make a place for himself in Gondor?