Shadow Over Rhudaur Planning Thread

[Gimilbeth]

Earniel "If the King has had to invite Broggha to Camoth Brin and give him a place on the council, he might be equally forced to hand over Tarniel.

Still it doesn't seem probable that the King will willingly entrust Tarniel to Broggha. After all he can put her atop the Tower and pack all the levels with guards. No, I think kidnapping is better.

Earniel: " Personally I think Wilwarin's room is good where it is. If the room is between the princesses' bedroom, it would just be more doors to watch. And I would imagine the girls like their bodyguard to be a little further away when she's not needed.

And while your changes sound interesting, Val, they might just be a bit too much of a reorganisation."

I feel the same. The right and left wings of the Palace are built symmetrical. It is a bit strange to make a big renovation, including moving walls, to accommodate a bodyguard. Put her a chair in a corner, that's all. And more the reason for the Princesses to get frustrated if they dislike it. I think it will be enough to put Odare's room instead of the Study and the Study instead of Odare's room.

Gimilbeth strikes me as someone who'd cut out the middleman and go straight to the WK to negociate. Although she could marry Belzagar to gain an ally in her quest for the throne, especially if both end up in league with Angmar. And Belzagar looks like a pretty influential person on his own. Or perhaps the WK would make the marriage a requirement for his aid in getting Gimilbeth on the throne? That way he'd have two pawns that will be stronger together than alone, and if need be he could play them both against another.

She needs a middle-man not out of shyness. If she could book a flight to Carn Dum and back, she would have gone there in person. As it is, she can't travel alone - the road is unsafe, even a nazgul almost got robbed. ;D If she takes a big escort - the secret will be out. She needs an intermediary and the one interested in her cause.
As for the WK marrying her away to Belzagar, I doubt he would do that. He personally fancies the little Witch, right, Angmar?

Rian - I will fix the chapter. Anyway every chapter will be posted in its turn before publishing it. And I still have to read your posts!

[Gimilbeth]

Val:

Now - I have already set up a lot of the "history" we're working toward, so I offer the following somewhat hesitantly. Think of this as a possible scenario, with many others still possible - not as a determined part of history. But - if you like it, we could work toward it.

No need to hesitate, Val. It is great you have a scenario to propose - let us discuss it. I love plotting - maybe more than playing.

I think for this to happen, Broggha will have to be established at some other place, and take Tarniel there.
Yes, either that (1) or have the King have a stroke leaving him an invalid (2)
I frankly see no other ways. I now think that to make the King go away on a trip will be unrealistic. Let us decide which one is better. I vote for Val's solution, because the other one is too "Theoden-ish".

Winter 1346-47 Broggha's men winter on King's Road. This becomes a bit of a nuisance to all parties - puts a cramp on local resources - like food! ...Summer 1347Broggha shifts his men to Penmorva. That is certainly true about food- but Broggha managing to bring an army to C. Brin was a great advantage for him. Will he forego such an advantage willingly? Nay. He can make the Private Council rise taxes and order food requisitions throughout the land.. He can make the King send part of his own troops away, even. I propose to let Broggha's men stay at C. Brin till he kidnaps the Princesses.
I see it like this: in 1348 Broggha finally accepts moving his army away (oh kind man!)- the Hillmen army departs -everyone is happy, but the last thing he does before leaving himself, he kidnaps the girls. With a handful of hillmen he sneaks into the Palace at night, using that permanently locked door on the right of the Palace - which by some treachery (that we shall invent later) was not locked this night. He gets the girls, gags them, puts them in a wagon and departs quietly. Only in the morning their absence is discovered - too late.

Meanwhile, we introduce a new character - in my mind I think of him as a "Grand High Marshall" - but maybe the name is shorter (I'll say GHM for now). He's in charge of deployments of Rhudaur's forces. Maybe he's also the "governor" in charge of Odaragariel's family home (do we have a firm location on that, btw? Did we set further upriver? North and east?). Anyway - the guy is totally loyal to Tarnendur, but Broggha finds a way to twist things and start to cast suspicion upon him.
Good idea, especially if you identify your GHM with already introduced old Nimruzir of Fennas Drunin - veteran of many wars, Queen Eilinel's great-uncle, a man most loyal to the King - whom we can make also Captain of the Army. The Governor of Imlad Mitheithel (Odare's lands in the upper valleys of Mitheithel) should be another man IMO -also loyal, why not? - whom Broggha can also discredit.

Spring 1347 Broggha finds a way to totally discredit this GHM - and probably others who are actually loyal to Tarnendur. Summer 1347...He begins to win the King over, claiming that he can help him, that he should be the new GHM, that he needs more resouces and he will crush the King's enemies..

A question is HOW to discredit such a good loyal man??? How to win the King's trust? Tarnendur is no fool...
Perhaps make angmarian orcs pillage Imlad Mitheithel and Broggha with his army "save it" and "drive the orcs away"? Just a little show agreed upon with the Witch-King?

I think Broggha should work hard to gain the King's confidence. I think he should even appear to be taking on Dunedain culture - and feigning respect for the King and his heritage. This is a surer way to stay on course than being always an affront. ... But I think Broggha has an "image problem" with the King that he needs to correct. He should make himself appear to be compliant, supportive, respectful. Maybe he can bring to justice one or some among his band who have wronged others and broken the King's Laws, for instance...??

So, you mean execute some of his captains to set an example? Broggha may like it...

Winter 1347-48 The King, feeling secure, rewards Broggha with the estate of Mitheithel.
Nay, no way. To give away Odare's lands entrusted to him means for the King foregoing his honor. I think he will NEVER do it. But he can name Broggha the King's governor of Imlad Mitheithel instead of the discredited former Gov. It amounts to the same thing after all - Broggha gets Imlad Mitheithel.

May 1348. Broggha, preparing to leave Cameth Brin from a Council meeting, kidnaps Tarniel and Odaragariel (sorry, Wilwarin - wanna join an outlaw band? ) and flees with his captives to Mitheithel. The King rallies what remains of his forces and prepares to lay seige.
That will mean a war - that the boys here may enjoy (ha-ha).

What saddens me in the proposed timeline is that the next major event (kidnapping of Tarniel) is set off for a 1,5 years game time. It is gonna be dull in between - very dull! and then the events will get crammed together. Why not marry them earlier - in 1347- early 48? Just because Tarniel is with child in December 1348? But you know, Val, she needs not to become pregnant immediately! There is nothing unnatural if she doesn't conceive straight away - especially being one of the poorly reproducing Dunedain.


early July 1348 Broggha explains from the ramparts of Mitheithel that he and Tarniel are married. He brings her forth, and she tells her father, from there, that she stays with him willingly (under duress? More likely than having been charmed by Big Red - most likely at least Odaragariel was threatened with great harm if she answered wrongly). Tarnendur resigns himself to this match and returns to Cameth Brin.
This is a good idea. "Tell your Dad you love me, or I rape your friend"

late August 1348 One of Tarnendur's sons has an 'unfortunate accident'
October 1348 Tarnendur's other son also suffers a weird stroke of fate. Tarniel begins to "show"
The problem here that it happens in Broggha's absence - so he is not the one who stages it. Who did it then- Belzagar? Possible. Alternatively it may be Gimilbeth, who "escaped" from Carn-Dum she said, but in truth was sent on this special mission. Edit: I think it would be Gimilbeth who got "rescued" from Angmar by Agannalo. The pair then appears at Cameth Brin to do the job.
November 1348 Resentful, Angry, Suspicious and also very much alone (for Broggha had outlawed his greatest allies) Tarnendur summons Broggha to Cameth Brin to account for his actions. Broggha comes, willingly, and innocently - and brings his wife Tarniel along. But as they meet, Broggha becomes enraged by the King's accusations, rises up and strikes him down. Even Tarniel is stunned. Broggha's men gather to him - and with the royal family all gone, he convinces the remnants of the King's guard / soldiers to go along with him. (EDIT: After all, the child that Tarniel bears will be not only the child and heir of Broggha, but the grandchild and heir of Tarnendur as well... whom Broggha loved as a father, and regrets that he slew so mindlessly from his great wrath... and how he wishes he could recall that deadly stroke... yadda-yadda)
Feasible, esp. if he brings his army back with him, but I guess most Dunedain won't buy it. They should be slain or flee. CC's for instance - they may flee to Amon Sul and Callon may later become one of Beleg's companions.

Some more questions

We sort of decided that Broggha, once he is established King of Rhudaur, will take all the Company to swear allegiance to his Liege - the WK in Carn Dum. That would take a month or two - I guess. So we have to get rid of the Princes and the King by October 1348, better by September - to come back from Carn Dum by December.


And then - where is Gimilbeth in all this, I wonder???

Gimilbeth comes to Amon Sul in mid-November and stays there till spring 1347. Will Malvegil agree to the Beleg-Tarniel match? -I guess yes - the marriage in 10-20 years Will he agree to send an army right then and there to help Tarnendur? I guess - no.
Do you agree with me, Val?

Then Gimilbeth returns to Cameth Brin empty-handed (March 1347) and starts playing games with Belzagar. Something like: "Ask the King of Angmar to get rid of Broggha - then let us get rid of Daurendil and Amantir and marry. Then, when Tarnendur dies, I will be the Queen and you - the King. I guess Belzagar (not an unselfish guy) will swallow the hook - what is 60 years difference in age between himself and Gimilbeth when the Crown is at stake? - and try to obtain the WK's permission for this plan B - because it is not at all feasible without Angmar's support.

But, I guess, the WK will stick to the surer plan - with Broggha. But will he repeat his order to bring him Gimilbeth? If so, she will be kidnapped and goes to Carn-Dum sometime in summer 1347. Or later? Or is she kidnapped by Broggha along with Tarniel and Odare and then sent on to Carn-Dum? The latter may be easier.

Difficult to plan so far ahead (sigh).

To sum up, I believe Val's plan is feasible - with some alterations. namely marrying earlier, killing Daurendil and Amantir earlier to have the time for a visit to Carn Dum.

I propose -Amon Sul meeting - Nov 46-March 47, Cameth Brin intrigues - March 47-. Then a jump in time to the summer-autumn '47-48 to show how well Broggha had established himself and how Eryndil etc. got discredited. then big jump again to early '48. Kidnapping and marriage- February 1348: Broggha keeps T and O in Imlad Mitheithel and sends Gimilbeth to Carn Dum. Little war -in March-April 48, Gimilbeth returns to Cameth Brin -May '48, King's sons killed - June and July '48, Broggha returns and slays the King in early September, after that most Dunedain are wiped away or flee (September- October) and the trip to Carn-Dum - October-November, with about a week or two there. December '48 - the rescue of T and O by Beleg and K. (By the way, Nauremir and Callon might be Beleg's companions, if Elfhild and Rianagree)

What do you think, All? Are there alternative plots? Eh, Angmar, what do you think? You are also one to make plans for the furture...And others? Elfhild - when and how you wish to get married and pregnant? What about you, Rian, and you, Serenoli? Earniel - your ideas?

[Gimilbeth]

Rian, Just read your posts.
The ending of the one at the end of Shadow I is great - it should be the last post of the "Runnings", and it mirrors the title perfectly.

The one in Shadow 2 is very nice - I loved the race thing, but here I have 2 nitpicks.

Firstly, I feel that "OK" is too modern an expression to fit. I may be wrong, of course...

Then you messed a bit with geography. Tanoth Brin comes first - you ride through the town, then out of it through another gate - and see Broggha's camp on both sides of the road, but mostly to your right. Then, beyond the camp, the road starts its winding climb up the Cameth Brin hill.
Both Tanoth Brin and the camp are directly below the hill where Cameth Brin is situated.

Sorry for nitpicking

[Rian]

gimilbeth said:

Rian, Just read your posts.
The ending of the one at the end of Shadow I is great - it should be the last post of the "Runnings", and it mirrors the title perfectly.

I'm glad you liked it - that was the idea I had, to mirror the title.

I also added a phrase at the end of my last post in part II that used the word "intrigues" for the same reason - to mirror the title of "Intrigues and Sorcery". I felt that the ending of the different parts just needed a little wrap-up type of thing.

The one in Shadow 2 is very nice - I loved the race thing, but here I have 2 nitpicks.

Firstly, I feel that "OK" is too modern an expression to fit. I may be wrong, of course...

Then you messed a bit with geography. Tanoth Brin comes first - you ride through the town, then out of it through another gate - and see Broggha's camp on both sides of the road, but mostly to your right. Then, beyond the camp, the road starts its winding climb up the Cameth Brin hill.
Both Tanoth Brin and the camp are directly below the hill where Cameth Brin is situated.

Sorry for nitpicking

No, don't be sorry - I asked for geographical corrections, and I appreciate them. I'll make them in the next few days. Thanks - and I'll reconsider "OK", ok?

EDIT - I changed the OKs

PS - those overall plans are fine with me. You guys are great with that, so I'll leave it up to you. The only thing that I request is that there are some victories for the "good" guys (esp. considering that Tarniel's death is already a given). Considering that the "bad" guys have the WK and Nazgul on their side, this might seem like asking a lot, but I believe that it's in the spirit of Tolkien (as well as real life) that the little guy who is faithful and courageous will win some sometimes unexpected victories. After all, the "good" guys have someone bigger than even the WK on their side ...

[Witch-king of Angmar]

gimilbeth said:

She needs a middle-man not out of shyness. If she could book a flight to Carn Dum and back, she would have gone there in person. As it is, she can't travel alone - the road is unsafe, even a nazgul almost got robbed. ;D If she takes a big escort - the secret will be out. She needs an intermediary and the one interested in her cause.
As for the WK marrying her away to Belzagar, I doubt he would do that. He personally fancies the little Witch, right, Angmar?

Gordis, yes. With her royal blood and increasing powers in magic, Gimilbeth is a lady after Angmar's own heart. To allow Belzagar to marry her could be a real blunder should she ever be in line for the throne. The Witch-king doesn't make many of them.

[Valandil]

Here's what I meant about the Suite for Young Ladies at the Palace (as submitted by Hurgon Fernik - on lined paper, no less):

[Valandil]

Gordis

(Say - didn't we used to have a "Planning" thread apart from the regular game discussion thread? May be a good idea again)

I can agree about Broggha becoming King's governor of Mitheithel - instead of receiving it as a grant. As for his troops - maybe he splits them between Cameth Brin, Mitheithel and Penmorva - supplemented by Rhudaurian regulars (??). In fact, Broggha should try to get all his men outfitted as "official" Rhudaurian soldiery. Pulling off the kidnap while withdrawing the last of his men from CB may be a good way to go.

I am averse to shifting very much the timeline of when the big wedding takes place - but as you indicate, we can skip around.

We will have to come up with some convincing methods of framing up some of Tarnendur's allies. Actually, a subplot I'm working on, regarding something I PM'd you before - might really come in handy there.

Also - maybe something more convincing for when Broggha kills the King and still has to make it out of there alive. I suppose he would have to kill some of the Dunedain guardsmen - I just wondered if he could turn a few rather than be forced to overpower them all (what might turn some - Money? Doubtful. Pity for Tarniel? Maybe. Despair at the failures of the Rhudaurian monarchy? Possible.).

As for Broggha going to swear allegiance in Angmar - maybe it's best if he's away when the young heroes arrive to pull of the rescue of the princesses (in December '48). It might make that rescue more plausible. And... Broggha could be the laughingstock of the North, when his kidnapped bride is snatched away from him when he turns his back on her (after all, WiKi couldn't expect him to bring his expectant wife all up the road to Angmar when winter was setting in... could he?). So - late summer and autumn slaying of Princes and King may work.

I agree indeed with what you say about Arthedain. In fact, yet another subplot will give reason to wait. Especially in Malvegil's eyes. His son, Celebrindol/Argeleb - might have been more inclined to rush to battle (as he was King for a mere 7 years before dying in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar). But - Malvegil is still King now.

Oh - and don't start wiping out all the Dunedain in Rhudaur just yet. Things will get pretty bad for them, but it's not until 1409 that the last of them have to flee or are slain.

[Eärniel]

gimilbeth said:

That is certainly true about food- but Broggha managing to bring an army to C. Brin was a great advantage for him. Will he forego such an advantage willingly? Nay. He can make the Private Council rise taxes and order food requisitions throughout the land.. He can make the King send part of his own troops away, even. I propose to let Broggha's men stay at C. Brin till he kidnaps the Princesses.

Or he could send them away in full sight and let them trickle back in unnoticed. A few more guards that happen to be hillmen, a new tavernkeeper, a few new men for the stable, a new squad he needs for his new duties, another small squad that comes back without much notice, etc... I think getting rid of his large troops, or getting them to lie really low will be necessary for Broggha to gain trust in the first place.

A question is HOW to discredit such a good loyal man??? How to win the King's trust? Tarnendur is no fool...
Perhaps make angmarian orcs pillage Imlad Mitheithel and Broggha with his army "save it" and "drive the orcs away"? Just a little show agreed upon with the Witch-King?

There are a number of ruses possible, I think. One could send a few marauding bands (best humans for this) into other parts of Rhudaur, coming from Imlad Mitheithel. Despite best efforts these guys can't be apprehended. People get the feeling that the people high-up aren't concerned enough about their safety. And suddenly our victim of discredit has a lot more money, and maybe some of the marauders were seen going to his keep. A few forged papers, a few spread rumours or so, and maybe people are ready to believe that our GHM or Governor of Imlad Mitheithel is running a scam to get rich.

What saddens me in the proposed timeline

[/B] is that the next major event (kidnapping of Tarniel) is set off for a 1,5 years game time. It is gonna be dull in between - very dull! and then the events will get crammed together. [/QUOTE]
We could do a couple of timelapses, but on some points we need to have a necessary amount of time elapsed to keep the events believable.

The problem here that it happens in Broggha's absence - so he is not the one who stages it. Who did it then- Belzagar? Possible. Alternatively it may be Gimilbeth, who "escaped" from Carn-Dum she said, but in truth was sent on this special mission.

I would have imagined Broggha would have kept well out of the way of the deaths of the princes, whether he was still in keep near Cameth Brin or not to avoid being implicated. Maybe by then he has a number of people on his side to do the job in his absense. Not being there when the princes die may be the best course for Broggha.

rian said:

The only thing that I request is that there are some victories for the "good" guys (esp. considering that Tarniel's death is already a given).

Maybe we get to kill Broggha? Other than that there just doesn't seem to be much in the story that goes well for the good side. If the good guys can get out alive and 'live to fight another' that maybe all the victory that's possible.

[Valandil]

Rian

OK - I made both edits you requested. In "Runnings" I changed Caelen's look (not like us guys can ever tell what you girls are thinking anyway! ;P ). Also - I added his reaction to her gift in "Intrigues". Let me know what you think.

Also - as you can see I added the next Eryndil post. I'll have a couple more - v soon, I hope. Also - got that avvie on (thanks Gordis... say, got any "Prince Valiant" pictures? )

[Gordis]

earniel said:

There are a number of ruses possible, I think. One could send a few marauding bands (best humans for this) into other parts of Rhudaur, coming from Imlad Mitheithel. Despite best efforts these guys can't be apprehended. People get the feeling that the people high-up aren't concerned enough about their safety. And suddenly our victim of discredit has a lot more money, and maybe some of the marauders were seen going to his keep. A few forged papers, a few spread rumours or so, and maybe people are ready to believe that our GHM or Governor of Imlad Mitheithel is running a scam to get rich.

that is a good idea to discredit anyone.

We could do a couple of timelapses, but on some points we need to have a necessary amount of time elapsed to keep the events believable.

I don't like time-lapses, so I am going to propose something - I am finishing the next post.

Val -I don't think I have a Prince Valiant - but isn't there a website about him? Isn't there a picture? Please have a look.

EDIT: I like your Palace re-modelling project, Val. I will draw it, if Earniel agrees.