Economy in Arnor

[Arassuil]

I found this board today and have to say I quite enjoyed reading through this great discussion. I can see that both Duilin and Valandil have invested a lot of time into the study of the canonicly fragmented history of the Northern kingdom of Arnor. One has to be careful not to put too much weight in non-conanical sources like Martinez, or our own speculations. One thing I would like to add to this discussion is the fact the native (read: non-Numenorean) population of men in Middle Earth had always despised the men of Numenor, as told in Unfinished Tales - Aldarion and Erendis, pg 233:

"...but returning northwards he had met contrary winds and great storms, and scarce escaping shipwreck in the Harad found (the haven of) Vinyalonde overthrown by great seas and plundered by hostile men."

This was in my quick mental reckoning around the year 830 of the second age, so there was documented evidence that the locals didn't care much for the men of the sea and were ready ears for Sauron to poison in further hatred toward both the elves and the men of Numenor.

Thank you for allowing my newbie intrusion into your fine thread.

[Valandil]

Thank you, Arassuil. I am a fellow Dunedain-devotee! ;D And... you're very welcome to add your opinions and views where you like. All the more because you're off to a solid start, in both the 'well-informed' and 'polite' categories!

I hope we're not being too unclear with what is canonical and what is not - and what is merely our own speculation. For one, I suppose it's tiresome to always add the conditional qualifiers (if, maybe, suppose, etc).

But also - much of our game is based on a document that I haven't gotten around to posting on this site yet. It's a chronicle of the northern Dunedain, and the whole thrust of our game is really based on a part of it - and the rest of the game pretty well fits within its framework (I took some pains to make that framework fit within canon - fleshing it out, but not altering).

Anyway, for purposes of our game and for discussion, it's very necessary to at least speculate about all these details that go beyond canon.

You're more than welcome to join in this, or any other discussion here though - and you're certainly free to ask for clarifications on which parts we consider canonical, etc. And also to offer your own opinions, observations, comments on alternate interpretations (as you do above), etc.

It's also important to note though, that being an evolving milleu (ooo... another word I rarely use in a sentence! ), Tolkien's vision of Middle-earth is not without internal inconsistencies. So - while I acknowledge the quote you give from UT, I'm thinking there are a few other statements that could be taken somewhat counter to it. No time to look them up now though (and... argh! I loaned out my copy of UT and haven't gotten it back yet! )

[Gordis]

You are more than welcome in any discussion you choose to join, Arassuil!

arassuil said:

One thing I would like to add to this discussion is the fact the native (read: non-Numenorean) population of men in Middle Earth had always despised the men of Numenor

I completely agree.

The reaction of the native ME population to Numenoreans was quite well described in Tal - Elmar (HOME XII). Fear and rejection.

The men by the Gwathlo hated Numenoreans for a good reason - they destroyed their forests (UT). The Men of the White Mountains served Sauron willingly, then gave the oath of allegiance to Isildur, but then refused to join the Last alliance army (and paid for it dearly).

The Dunlendings and the Hillmen ... well you know.

So, the only more or less friendly locals were the men of Breeland - and those knew the future Numenoreans in the First Age, so maybe that was why they were less hostile when "the Kings of Men" returned in the Second Age.

[Arassuil]

valandil said:

Thank you, Arassuil. I am a fellow Dunedain-devotee! ;D And... you're very welcome to add your opinions and views where you like. All the more because you're off to a solid start, in both the 'well-informed' and 'polite' categories!

I hope we're not being too unclear with what is canonical and what is not - and what is merely our own speculation. For one, I suppose it's tiresome to always add the conditional qualifiers (if, maybe, suppose, etc).

But also - much of our game is based on a document that I haven't gotten around to posting on this site yet. It's a chronicle of the northern Dunedain, and the whole thrust of our game is really based on a part of it - and the rest of the game pretty well fits within its framework (I took some pains to make that framework fit within canon - fleshing it out, but not altering).

Anyway, for purposes of our game and for discussion, it's very necessary to at least speculate about all these details that go beyond canon.

You're more than welcome to join in this, or any other discussion here though - and you're certainly free to ask for clarifications on which parts we consider canonical, etc. And also to offer your own opinions, observations, comments on alternate interpretations (as you do above), etc.

It's also important to note though, that being an evolving milleu (ooo... another word I rarely use in a sentence! ), Tolkien's vision of Middle-earth is not without internal inconsistencies. So - while I acknowledge the quote you give from UT, I'm thinking there are a few other statements that could be taken somewhat counter to it. No time to look them up now though (and... argh! I loaned out my copy of UT and haven't gotten it back yet! )

I agree that a certain amount of speculation is in order while discussing the wide expanse of possibilities left open by Tolkien. Also, the determination as to what's "canonical" varies from person to person. To me, I determine it such:
1 - Technical - What was published by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. If it isn't mentioned in the Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit, it falls outside of this catagory. This leaves a lot open to interpretation of the reader.
2 - Quasi - This includes the Silmarillion, UT, HoME, and any other posthumous publication, for they contain various inconsistancies (as you point out, and I am curious as to what you are thinking of quoting). Discussion is good, and so is writing fanfic to fill in the gaps. I've done enough of this over the years. As a side note, I think I would find it hard to get involved in an RP where I don't know the whole story basis. Maybe I could write a small part of a common soldier or a lesser commander or such. We'll see. I digress, for this is a discussion of the economy of Arnor!

Thank you all for the welcome!