Economy in Arnor

[Valandil]

Yes - I knew Aldburg was not a Gondorian name. I was thinking there had been a previous Gondorian town on the site though, but I could be mistaken. I've loaned out my UT, so I'm relying on memory... which is increasingly foggy each year.

Good points about the rest. It might have made sense for Gondor to relocate the Ithil stone - but OTOH, it was to the east, from where they had lots of trouble. Maybe it was just easier to let them rest where they were - and the users were probably so limited (mostly the King, his Heir and a very few trusted advisors or wardens) that the one or two closest were plenty for their uses, and the others (Ithil and Orthanc, basically), were pretty much on "standby".

In Arnor though - I don't think Arthedain was strong enough or widespread enough, after 1409, to place a stone at a second location. It would have been too risky. So, once Amon Sul fell, it was very easy to keep them in the same place. (the troublesome part to me is - why didn't Arvedui give one to his son, instead of bringing both away with himself - but possibly it was born of necessity, and certainly served JRRT in bringing the northern stones to an end)

[Duilin]

The whole thing is rather odd - why not just make the Amon Sûl stone be lost in the fire that destroys the tower, leaving Arvedui with only the Annuminas stone to lose?

[Valandil]

Unless, as a 'greater stone' - the Amon Sul stone is necessary for contact with Gondor in 1940, re: the marriage of Arvedui and Firiel.

[Gordis]

It is a very interesting discussion - pity I have little time for it now.

I agree with Val's list of big sities. - esp. Umbar must have been huge - but smaller than Osgiliath in its glory.

As for Minases Anor and Ithil see this thread:

www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=13143

[Gordis]

valandil said:

Unless, as a 'greater stone' - the Amon Sul stone is necessary for contact with Gondor in 1940, re: the marriage of Arvedui and Firiel.

And even more so it was necessary to ask for help when Arvedui was stranded in Forochel. Otherwise, how did the Elves know where to look for him?

[Duilin]

Unless, as a 'greater stone' - the Amon Sul stone is necessary for contact with Gondor in 1940, re: the marriage of Arvedui and Firiel.

But none of the stuff about that is to be found in the text of LOTR. We know that Orthanc can communicate with Barad-dûr using lesser stones. That's a long way. And in 1940, the Osgiliath stone was already lost. I think the idea in the essay on the Palantiri that the greater stones were needed for communications falls apart when we look at the text of LOTR. At any rate, I was looking at this largely from an external standpoint, in which Middle-earth is Tolkien's creation, rather than an internally consistent world. Tolkien could write it however he liked. From the standpoint of the story told in LOTR, all we know is that there were 7 stones, that one each was in Orthanc and Minas Tirith, and that one ended up in Sauron's hands. The background story that Tolkien made up later to explain this is odd in several respects.

In terms of big cities - you guys are right, Umbar and Pelargir were almost certainly bigger than Minas Anor and Minas Ithil, and perhaps Tharbad was as well. Less sure about Fornost - I could see Fornost as being more or less of similar size to Ithil and Anor at this point.

Also, am I correct in thinking that the Tower of Ecthelion was not built until after Tarondor's time? I know it wasn't actually built by either of the Ecthelions, but I seem to recall it was built rather late. (Leading to the question of what was the Tower of the Sun, if it wasn't the Tower of Ecthelion?)

[Gordis]

We know from the Tale of Years that the city of Anor was rebuilt in TA 420 by King Ostoher. The tower of Anarion was seemingly demolished and built anew in TA 1900 by King Calimehtar, and that tower was rebuilt in TA 2698 by Steward Ecthelion I.

[Duilin]

So, what's the a ctual chronology of tower-building, here?

ca. 3320 S.A. - Minas Anor, including tower, built by Anárion.
(was there a destruction of Minas Anor during the War of the Last Alliance?)
420 T.A. - Ostoher rebuilds the city, tears down tower for some reason
1900 T.A. - Calimehtar builds new tower
2698 T.A. - Ecthelion I rebuilds tower, which becomes known as the Tower of Ecthelion.

Or are we to assume that Anárion's tower was torn down during the war of the last alliance? Or that it stayed up until Calimehtar decided for some reason to tear it down?

[Gordis]

I don't think there was any structural damage to M Anor during the war of the Last Alliance. I think Anarion managed to hold the line of Anduin.

As for Anarion's tower, I think it stood till TA 1900, when Calimehtar decided to build a new one.
Looks like after two millenia both (twin) towers of Anor and Ithil had started to crumble.
It is noteworthy that when the nazgul took M Ithil (TA 2002) they also made some renovations to the tower of Isildur - likely repaired it and notably built the upper revolving tier, that disturbed everyone so much.

Calimehtar's tower was not soo good as Anarion's (as the skills of the Numenoreans had dwindled) so it only stood for 800 years and the new one had to be built by Echtelion the Steward.

As for the nazgul tower - being much better built (Ahh! skills of High Numenoreans!), it still functioned and revolved noiselessly after 1000 years

[Duilin]

Hmm...do we know for certain that Anárion even built a tower, or is it an inference from the fact that the place is called "Tower of the Sun"? I'm not sure I like the idea that the towers were crumbling. Orthanc, after all, was still in good shape a thousand years after that. And why should the distant frontier post of Orthanc be better built than the capital cities of the two kings? We can be fairly certain that Orthanc was never rebuilt, I think, and it was so abandoned that Isengard got taken over by Dunlendings before 2758. Perhaps Minas Anor was just figuratively a tower until 1900, based on its commanding position on the mountain, and then Calimehtar decided to build an actual tower?