New Characters

[Voronwen]

(I wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask this question, or not - so feel free to move it if it's not!

I would like to bring in two new (VERY minor!!) characters soon, if possible. I need to cut my baby teeth on something before getting really involved.

How do i go about presenting them "officially" and getting them approved? Do you want extensive profiles, etc, and if so how much so?

Of course, i still am catching up on the story and therefore not sure how they'd fit into things exactly just yet, but...

They are:

Vorondariel ("daughter of the Faithful"), Voronwen's descendant




and...


Tamyris (Greek-derived name, could translate loosely into Adunaic as "smith's daughter"), a servant girl




I'd like for Vorondariel to be in Arthedain, of course (or at least from there). As for Tamyris, she could be used anywhere (well, except for Carn Dum! ). She's of lesser birth than Vorondariel, just a simple servant (maybe her servant? not necessary though).

Maybe Vorondariel overhears the mention of her ancestress in that library...? She's a quiet sort, like her great-great-great-etc-aunt and given to listening/watching from the background. Maybe she could be used for something useful, in some small way.

Perhaps Tamyris, though also a Faithful character, has some distant Black Numenorean relatives somewhere - the Adunaic name had to come from somewhere (did anyone else still use Adunaic names by this time period?). I don't want to play her as evil, but i'm open to any other suggestions.

This way i'd have a "noble" character and one who is a bit, how shall we say it, closer to the earth. Also, one is 100% undeniably good, while the other is a bit "grey" due to being of questionable background - *maybe* - not really sure which way i want to go with her just yet.

Please let me know what you think... I know i am getting way ahead of myself!

[Eärniel]

As I'm only handling secondary characters myself, I may not be the best one to judge your new characters, but they look okay to me.

Vorondariel could IMO, easily be fitted amongst all the young ladies currently walking around in Amon Sul.

I'm not sure about Black Numenoreans this far north, but Gordis knows more about that. But if you just wanted to add that to have something to contrast against the Faithful, ordinary Dunedain, you could also lean towards the Hill-men among her ancestors. My character Wilwarin, while one of the Faithful, also has a Hill-woman as her grandmother, although I haven't put much emphasis on that so far.

The only possible trouble I see will be points of interaction. Most of the characters in the game are nobility, or higher class. Your servant-girl Tamyris may not have much places where you can interact with the other players.

[Voronwen]

May 29, 2009 19:45:13 GMT Eärniel said:

I'm not sure about Black Numenoreans this far north, but Gordis knows more about that. But if you just wanted to add that to have something to contrast ...

Not just that, as i think her being of simpler birth would be enough contrast - but because of the Adunaic name. She would not herself be associated with the BN's, but perhaps had them in her not-too-distant ancestry in order to end up with an Adunaic name in this late time period (which is a bit out of my usual! ). But if the Faithful are still occasionally naming their children in Adunaic - and as far as i know, Adunaic in Middle Earth was more of a language of commoners, at least earlier on, as the royals had abandoned it(??) - then it might suffice that she ended up with such a name from being of common birth. Maybe she is simply from Gondor? Some Third Age Gondorians had Adunaic-derived names without being BN's (ie. Imrahil... and he was certainly not common!). I'll have to do a bit of digging about this and come back to it. Thanks for your input!

PS ~ I don't expect to use these characters right away. If the Mods prefer that i start out with one of the minor public characters, or a child character, or the like - i'll start there. I'm just thinking of ways to start slowly (VERY slowly) as a learning experience at first. I'd be fine using Tamyris as a "first" character after that. I don't intend to bring Vorondariel into things until i get some footing.

[Gordis]

I think both your characters are perfectly OK.

I suggest you put Vorondariel among Sulawen's (the future queen of Arthedain) ladies, that will permit her to interact with all the royals of Arthedain currently at Amon Sul: Sulawen and Celebrindol, Beleg, Armacil, Estelien etc. as well as with Calafornien, who is her fellow lady-in waiting in Sulawen's suite.
More specifically I suggest you make Vorondariel this very lady mentioned in Val's post (first post on page 3 of Intrigues and Sorcery):

“Oh Beleg…” called a voice beside him, “Calafornien wants to know whether it is her charms that have brought you back among us?” followed by an eruption of laughter and giggles. Beleg turned his head and saw next to him the canvas sides of the royal carriage drawn up, and sitting right beside him were four ladies wearing a wide gamut of expressions. His youngest sister, Estelien, who had spoken, looked mischievous and triumphant, while the young lady in question sat next to her, trying to hide her face from embarrassment (and indeed, Beleg was not unaware of her charms – although they had not summoned him to this interview). Across sat his mother Sulawen, giving his sister a sharp look of disapproval, and next to her, a young noblewoman who was his mother’s favorite lady-in-waiting, trying her hardest to show no expression at all.

That is the only time this lady is mentioned. I think we can simply insert Vorondariel's name there, and you can tell what you like about her.
It would be great if she were sitting in the library... You may start with a post there: talk with old Gandalf, why not? Old Gandy is easy to write and he is a sympathetic listener to ancient stories.

Suppose I edit my last post and make the Librarian cite a couple of verses from the Lays of Voronwen (which you can provide me with ), and Gandalf notices the young lady's reaction and approaches her to talk? Would you like such a lead?

As for Tamyris, you can put her anywhere. I think the Adunaic name is no problem, and doesn't necessarily imply her connection to the Black Numenoreans. All Dol Amroth family had Adunaic names - so what? Perhaps her ancestors were from Belfalas...

[Valandil]

Tamyris might be an opportunity for involvement in Rhudaur though (which has been our most active site). Maybe she should be in Cameth Brin?

Voronwen - if you're wondering about some of the names in the Arthedain royal family, let me explain:

Malvegil is now King of Arthedain.
Celebrindol is his son - he will become King Argeleb - but from JRRT's account, it appears he takes that name when/because Arthedain claims all of old Arnor once again - probably upon taking the throne.
Beleg is the son of Celebrindol/King Argeleb - and similarly, will take the name Arveleg at some point - probably on taking the throne.

Just wanted to mention this, in case you had noticed the names and wondered why they were not what you expected.

The names Celebrindol and Beleg - as well as another name for the next king (Araphor) - are all given in a chapter of HoME 12 - Peoples of Middle-earth. The explanation of why those alternate names are given is missing, but I think it's clearly just a reflection of the events at this time.

[Duilin]

I'd imagine that Adunaic names would have been common in some regions of Númenor, while Sindarin names were common in other parts. Perhaps Marachians were more likely to use the Adunaic, and Beorians the Sindarin. Since a disproportionate number of Beorians ended up as Faithful, iirc, then most of the descendants of Númenor would end up with Sindarin names, but perhaps one of the ships was led by a nobleman of Marachian descent, and the people on his ship largely had Adunaic names.

Alternately, iirc there were Beorian-cousins living in Eriador when Elendil arrived. These would presumably have had Adunaic names. I assume there was some mixing with the returning exiles (more mixing than there was in Cardolan and Rhudaur, likely), but the lower classes of Arthedain would likely have more of this blood than Númenorean blood, just as the lower classes in Rhudaur are mostly Hillmen, and the lower classes in Cardolan are largely Gwaithuirim (sp?).

[Voronwen]

Gordis -

More specifically I suggest you make Vorondariel this very lady mentioned in Val's post ...

a young noblewoman who was his mother’s favorite lady-in-waiting, trying her hardest to show no expression at all.

This would be perfect This would not only show her inherent character right away, but also put her in a position very much like that of Voronwen's.

It would be great if she were sitting in the library... You may start with a post there: talk with old Gandalf, why not? Old Gandy is easy to write and he is a sympathetic listener to ancient stories.

Suppose I edit my last post and make the Librarian cite a couple of verses from the Lays of Voronwen (which you can provide me with ), and Gandalf notices the young lady's reaction and approaches her to talk? Would you like such a lead?

Would i?! If you think i am ready for this, then, sure! If i do anything to mess things up, just tell me and i will detele it (or you can). Talking to Gandalf would be a good way to introduce Vorondariel's deep connection with and love for the past. She's a little historian, in her own right so this would be a good opportunity for her to step out of the shadows and into the story. However, i have not read up to the end yet (i'm still on part III), so i don't really know how she got there. But i think it's perfectly doable! Would she know who Gandalf is, or just find this "nice old man" to be personable and a kindred spirit in the love of history and therefore find it easy to open up to him?

As for providing you with a bit of Voronwen's verse, i'll pick something and PM it to you. I'm leaning toward the part with the mention of the Last Alliance - that would really perk Vorondariel's ears... (ETA - better yet-- just mention that the librarian read a few lines of Voronwen's poetry, and when i post i will quote them .

Re. Tamyris - Belfalas is a great idea. I want her to have something "Southern" about her, in the Gondorian sense. So, this would work.


Valandil -

Tamyris might be an opportunity for involvement in Rhudaur though (which has been our most active site). Maybe she should be in Cameth Brin?

Cameth Brin could work. I've been thinking over why she, a Gondorian, would go all the way up there - i suppose that's for me to work out Maybe she knows Gimilbeth's lady in waiting, or is related, and goes to visit her looking for work....

Thanks for the explanations about the names. I was wondering whether some of the characters were "AU" or... this certainly helps. I'll have to dig up Peoples of M.E. - i know we have it somewhere.


Duilin -

I'd imagine that Adunaic names would have been common in some regions of Númenor, while Sindarin names were common in other parts. Perhaps Marachians were more likely to use the Adunaic, and Beorians the Sindarin. Since a disproportionate number of Beorians ended up as Faithful, iirc, then most of the descendants of Númenor would end up with Sindarin names, but perhaps one of the ships was led by a nobleman of Marachian descent, and the people on his ship largely had Adunaic names.

Good thoughts!! This is also very helpful - thank you (and hello .


ETA again - So, i suppose i need to make a new account as Vorondariel? Is there anything special i need to know about having a second account?

[Valandil]

May 30, 2009 15:48:51 GMT Voronwen said:

Gordis -

More specifically I suggest you make Vorondariel this very lady mentioned in Val's post ...

a young noblewoman who was his mother’s favorite lady-in-waiting, trying her hardest to show no expression at all.

This would be perfect This would not only show her inherent character right away, but also put her in a position very much like that of Voronwen's.

Would i?! If you think i am ready for this, then, sure! If i do anything to mess things up, just tell me and i will detele it (or you can). Talking to Gandalf would be a good way to introduce Vorondariel's deep connection with and love for the past. She's a little historian, in her own right so this would be a good opportunity for her to step out of the shadows and into the story. However, i have not read up to the end yet (i'm still on part III), so i don't really know how she got there. But i think it's perfectly doable! Would she know who Gandalf is, or just find this "nice old man" to be personable and a kindred spirit in the love of history and therefore find it easy to open up to him?

As for providing you with a bit of Voronwen's verse, i'll pick something and PM it to you. I'm leaning toward the part with the mention of the Last Alliance - that would really perk Vorondariel's ears...

This sounds great! Now... Vorondariel is not a descendant of Voronwen's though, correct? Unless... is it possible that Voronwen was a young widow (with a child) when her association with the House of Andunie began? Or - at least when it re-commenced, if it wasn't continuous?

Re. Tamyris - Belfalas is a great idea. I want her to have something "Southern" about her, in the Gondorian sense. So, this would work.

Valandil -

Cameth Brin could work. I've been thinking over why she, a Gondorian, would go all the way up there - i suppose that's for me to work out Maybe she knows Gimilbeth's lady in waiting, or is related, and goes to visit her looking for work....

Oh - we could come up with lots of explanations. Maybe a sister married a lesser noble in Rhudaur, or her brother took a position as an official in Rhudaur's court (at the recommendation of everyone's friend - King Romendacil II in Gondor). So - if she had a reason to be looking for a 'change of scenery' - a visit to family up north would have been a very acceptable reason. OOPS - just saw again that she's to be a servant girl. Then maybe the family she served in the south had relations in Rhudaur, and had some reason they wanted to send her off. Either to help out with some special need up there, or to get rid of her because she was making trouble in their household, but they didn't want to just cut her loose.

Thanks for the explanations about the names. I was wondering whether some of the characters were "AU" or... this certainly helps. I'll have to dig up Peoples of M.E. - i know we have it somewhere.

Yes - just looked it up, and it's on page 209 - right at the top. Christopher Tolkien mentions a transition of names (two versions) involving taking the 'Ar' prefix, but thinks it curious that the first three on the list didn't have the 'Ar' in the older version. I'm surprised he doesn't realize that two of those three would have been born before the cause for use of the prefix took place - and as for the third, it could be that the practice was not yet fully established at the time of his birth, or for some other reason (I have 'some other reason' in a fanfic chronicle of all these kings - also posted here, somewhereabouts).

Duilin -

I'd imagine that Adunaic names would have been common in some regions of Númenor, while Sindarin names were common in other parts. Perhaps Marachians were more likely to use the Adunaic, and Beorians the Sindarin. Since a disproportionate number of Beorians ended up as Faithful, iirc, then most of the descendants of Númenor would end up with Sindarin names, but perhaps one of the ships was led by a nobleman of Marachian descent, and the people on his ship largely had Adunaic names.

Good thoughts!! This is also very helpful - thank you (and hello .

We probably don't even have to worry about the mixed use of names, because there has been so much turmoil and so many shifts of different kinds. And in her case - if she has southern origins, it's easy enough to think that it's due to the closer connection between Gondor and Umbar for the past several generations.

[Voronwen]

May 30, 2009 16:12:33 GMT Valandil said:

Now... Vorondariel is not a descendant of Voronwen's though, correct? Unless... is it possible that Voronwen was a young widow (with a child) when her association with the House of Andunie began? Or - at least when it re-commenced, if it wasn't continuous?

(thinking..) I just have to say that i love your ideas regarding Voronwen!!! She is such a work in progress, new things about her are opening up all the time - and all of your thoughts (here and elsewhere) have really helped jog my thinking upon ways to make her the very real, warm-hearted, very human person that i want her to be. Thank you for that.

It's been my thinking so far that she is a great-great-(etc)-grand-niece of Voronwen's. So, a descendant, but not directly (though, unless she had an illegitimate child... No, no, no, no, NO, scrap that!!! ). Perhaps her relation is through a brother of Voronwen's who was sent off to M.E. before the Fall of Numenor, or something to that effect.

Re. Tamyris -

just saw again that she's to be a servant girl. Then maybe the family she served in the south had relations in Rhudaur, and had some reason they wanted to send her off. Either to help out with some special need up there, or to get rid of her because she was making trouble in their household, but they didn't want to just cut her loose.

I like the "troublemaker" idea ;D That could be a lot of fun.

We probably don't even have to worry about the mixed use of names, because there has been so much turmoil and so many shifts of different kinds. And in her case - if she has southern origins, it's easy enough to think that it's due to the closer connection between Gondor and Umbar for the past several generations.

Perfect, then!

[Valandil]

May 30, 2009 16:38:15 GMT Voronwen said:

:
:

It's been my thinking so far that she is a great-great-(etc)-grand-niece of Voronwen's. So, a descendant, but not directly (though, unless she had an illegitimate child... No, no, no, no, NO, scrap that!!! ). Perhaps her relation is through a brother of Voronwen's who was sent off to M.E. before the Fall of Numenor, or something to that effect.

:
:

Yes - I thought you would want it that way. To take off from your other idea - Vorondariel is descended from a brother. Perhaps this brother - or his son, Voronwen's nephew (so that he's younger), escaped from the persecution of the rest of the family - either rescued by Elendil or other Andunie family member - or, as you say, was already in ME. He later became an official in the household of Elendil (or - would that cramp things - having her brother around?).

Alternately - if sent ahead, he most likely went to Pelargir. He could have entered the service of Isildur after the Fall, and served him in Ithilien. After the War of the Alliance, he might have been one of those sent ahead of Isildur, up to Annuminas. Maybe to go comfort his aunt Voronwen on the passing of her Lord, King Elendil, and to prepare the palace for Isildur's coming.

Vorondariel could be a descendant of his. And - if Voronwen was somewhat well-known as a hostess in Elendil's palace, or as a writer, she may have been a famous enough relation to deserve mention in an introduction, etc.

EDIT: Hmmm... did Voronwen have a nephew named Estelmo? ;D