Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Jan 7, 2007 23:12:05 GMT
z3.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Kingdom/index.php?showtopic=36
Gordis
QUOTE
Gordis: "By the way, black was on all numenorean banners. Isn't it a color of the Royal house?"
QUOTE
Angmar: "On the colors of Numenor:
"For seven days he [Ar-Pharazôn] journeyed with banner and trumpet, and he came to a hill, and he went up, and he set there his pavillion and his throne; and he sat him down in the midst of the land, and the tents of his host were ranged all about him, blue, golden and white, as a field of tall flowers." - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth, p. 270
The sails of his ships are described as appearing "dyed as with scarlet and gleaming with red and gold" in the light of the sunset. Of course, maybe this means these were the colors of Ar-Pharazon.
I was under the impression that the colors of Numenor were blue, white and golden, and later the colors of Gondor were black and silver.
Any other information on this?
QUOTE
Valandil: "Very little information, but I'll hazard some guesses:
First of all, the reference you cite is about the army Ar-Pharazon took to Umbar, where the forces of Sauron were cowed and Sauron himself came forth to "humble himself" before Ar-Pharazon. So there's no real association of those colors with Arnor.
Second, I don't think the colors of the tents can be taken as the same colors which would be used in a national emblem. I just recently re-read Ivanhoe (strongly recommend it, btw) - at a tournament, there are many tents or canopies spread out - and in all sorts of bright colors - mostly to provide a scene of gaiety, not to be associated with the "colors" of any particular knight, king or other party. So - I don't think we can even associate those colors with an emblem of Numenor, or its kings.
Tolkien seems to have arrayed a lot of special people in white, black or gray/silver. Elendil's emblem seems to be white and silver emblems on a black field. The colors of the Citadel Guard were also black and white/silver (I don't remember).
My guess is that these were considered "royal colors" by the Numenoreans / Dunedain - as they seem to have been for the Elves. Maybe Tolkien just fancied those stark color contrasts.
For interests sake, it's hard to imagine that both Arnor and Gondor maintained a black and white color scheme for the entire Third Age. And remember - it was only the Citadel Guard that wore the black and white - it doesn't necessarily mean the other soldiers of Gondor did.
We know that Dol Amroth's colors were (light?) blue and white (silver? - sorry, I'm going all on memory) - and Gil-galad's were blue and gold. I don't think we know a whole lot more about Third Age "colors".
QUOTE
Angmar: I don't know if this would be of any help or not on colors, but in "J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, there is a drawing on page 191 of a "Numenorean Carpet." The central design is a diamond made of blue and gold upon a white background. Four other diamonds of like design surround it. There are other designs on the carpet in green, red and black. Egyptian Lotus-style images done in these colors compose the border of the carpet. The carpet was drawn in December of 1960. This could mean something, or perhaps these were the only pencils Tolkien had on hand. In any event, if anyone has any old Numenorean carpets around, they will bring a fortune from collectors of antiquity."
you mean this picture, Angmar?
I don't think that any of them had the same colors as on the banner, though.
Why do I think that Balck is the Royal color?
Here is a passage from "Tal-Elmar", a tale written in 1950-ies, after LOTR.
The timing of the story is difficult to determine, but it is clearly set before the Downfall but after most Numenoreans turned to evil. Probably during Ar-Pharazon's time.
QUOTE
'Ships of the Go-hilleg,' said Hazad, 'with great wind-cloths.
Three white - and one black.'
[...]
Then suddenly fear and the memory of old tales came upon
Tal-Elmar again, and he quailed.' What would you do to me?'
he cried. 'Would you lure me to the black-winged boat and give
me to the Dark?'
'You or your kin at least belong already to the Dark,' they
answered. 'But why do you speak so of the black sails? The
black sails are to us a sign of honour, for they are the fair night
before the coming of the Enemy, and upon the black are set the
silver stars of Elbereth. The black sails of our captain have
passed further up the water.'
I think the banners of Numenor Kings had some symbols (stars? or a single star?) set on black - the "colour of honour" and nobility.
QUOTE
LOTR: " The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun"
Here it seems likely that the seven stars were a symbol of Elendil , the crescent Moon stays for Isildur and the Sun for Anarion.
There seems to be some connection between seven stars and seven stones, which belonged to Elendil's house.
So, it seems likely that the banner of the Kings of Numenor of old was black and had stars, but not Seven. Probably One Star? (Elenna - the Land under the Star?)
However, it may be that the ships described in "Tal-Elmar" belonged to the Faithful of Andunie. The royal banner may have been scarlet or blue indeed, who knows?
We know that the banner of the king of Gondor was black (with the white tree), while that of the Stewards was only white (being not of the Royal line they had no right to use black?)
Now let us turn to Arnor and Gondor.
QUOTE
And all eyes followed his gaze, and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold.
Aragorn, taking the rule of both Arnor and Gondor, placed the Crown, Seven Stars and the White Tree on his banner.
Here it seems that the banner of Arnor had seven stars on a black field and a crown, while that of Gondo had only the White Tree.
On the other hand, see the quote here
QUOTE
Nonetheless the Stewards never sat on the ancient throne; and they wore no crown, and held no sceptre. They bore a white rod only as the token of their office; and their banner was white without charge; but the royal banner had been sable, upon which was displayed a white tree in blossom beneath seven stars.
Here it seems that Seven stars were both on Arnor and Gondor's banners - which is possible, weren't they all Elendil's descendants?
Gordis
QUOTE
Gordis: "By the way, black was on all numenorean banners. Isn't it a color of the Royal house?"
QUOTE
Angmar: "On the colors of Numenor:
"For seven days he [Ar-Pharazôn] journeyed with banner and trumpet, and he came to a hill, and he went up, and he set there his pavillion and his throne; and he sat him down in the midst of the land, and the tents of his host were ranged all about him, blue, golden and white, as a field of tall flowers." - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth, p. 270
The sails of his ships are described as appearing "dyed as with scarlet and gleaming with red and gold" in the light of the sunset. Of course, maybe this means these were the colors of Ar-Pharazon.
I was under the impression that the colors of Numenor were blue, white and golden, and later the colors of Gondor were black and silver.
Any other information on this?
QUOTE
Valandil: "Very little information, but I'll hazard some guesses:
First of all, the reference you cite is about the army Ar-Pharazon took to Umbar, where the forces of Sauron were cowed and Sauron himself came forth to "humble himself" before Ar-Pharazon. So there's no real association of those colors with Arnor.
Second, I don't think the colors of the tents can be taken as the same colors which would be used in a national emblem. I just recently re-read Ivanhoe (strongly recommend it, btw) - at a tournament, there are many tents or canopies spread out - and in all sorts of bright colors - mostly to provide a scene of gaiety, not to be associated with the "colors" of any particular knight, king or other party. So - I don't think we can even associate those colors with an emblem of Numenor, or its kings.
Tolkien seems to have arrayed a lot of special people in white, black or gray/silver. Elendil's emblem seems to be white and silver emblems on a black field. The colors of the Citadel Guard were also black and white/silver (I don't remember).
My guess is that these were considered "royal colors" by the Numenoreans / Dunedain - as they seem to have been for the Elves. Maybe Tolkien just fancied those stark color contrasts.
For interests sake, it's hard to imagine that both Arnor and Gondor maintained a black and white color scheme for the entire Third Age. And remember - it was only the Citadel Guard that wore the black and white - it doesn't necessarily mean the other soldiers of Gondor did.
We know that Dol Amroth's colors were (light?) blue and white (silver? - sorry, I'm going all on memory) - and Gil-galad's were blue and gold. I don't think we know a whole lot more about Third Age "colors".
QUOTE
Angmar: I don't know if this would be of any help or not on colors, but in "J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, there is a drawing on page 191 of a "Numenorean Carpet." The central design is a diamond made of blue and gold upon a white background. Four other diamonds of like design surround it. There are other designs on the carpet in green, red and black. Egyptian Lotus-style images done in these colors compose the border of the carpet. The carpet was drawn in December of 1960. This could mean something, or perhaps these were the only pencils Tolkien had on hand. In any event, if anyone has any old Numenorean carpets around, they will bring a fortune from collectors of antiquity."
you mean this picture, Angmar?
I don't think that any of them had the same colors as on the banner, though.
Why do I think that Balck is the Royal color?
Here is a passage from "Tal-Elmar", a tale written in 1950-ies, after LOTR.
The timing of the story is difficult to determine, but it is clearly set before the Downfall but after most Numenoreans turned to evil. Probably during Ar-Pharazon's time.
QUOTE
'Ships of the Go-hilleg,' said Hazad, 'with great wind-cloths.
Three white - and one black.'
[...]
Then suddenly fear and the memory of old tales came upon
Tal-Elmar again, and he quailed.' What would you do to me?'
he cried. 'Would you lure me to the black-winged boat and give
me to the Dark?'
'You or your kin at least belong already to the Dark,' they
answered. 'But why do you speak so of the black sails? The
black sails are to us a sign of honour, for they are the fair night
before the coming of the Enemy, and upon the black are set the
silver stars of Elbereth. The black sails of our captain have
passed further up the water.'
I think the banners of Numenor Kings had some symbols (stars? or a single star?) set on black - the "colour of honour" and nobility.
QUOTE
LOTR: " The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun"
Here it seems likely that the seven stars were a symbol of Elendil , the crescent Moon stays for Isildur and the Sun for Anarion.
There seems to be some connection between seven stars and seven stones, which belonged to Elendil's house.
So, it seems likely that the banner of the Kings of Numenor of old was black and had stars, but not Seven. Probably One Star? (Elenna - the Land under the Star?)
However, it may be that the ships described in "Tal-Elmar" belonged to the Faithful of Andunie. The royal banner may have been scarlet or blue indeed, who knows?
We know that the banner of the king of Gondor was black (with the white tree), while that of the Stewards was only white (being not of the Royal line they had no right to use black?)
Now let us turn to Arnor and Gondor.
QUOTE
And all eyes followed his gaze, and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold.
Aragorn, taking the rule of both Arnor and Gondor, placed the Crown, Seven Stars and the White Tree on his banner.
Here it seems that the banner of Arnor had seven stars on a black field and a crown, while that of Gondo had only the White Tree.
On the other hand, see the quote here
QUOTE
Nonetheless the Stewards never sat on the ancient throne; and they wore no crown, and held no sceptre. They bore a white rod only as the token of their office; and their banner was white without charge; but the royal banner had been sable, upon which was displayed a white tree in blossom beneath seven stars.
Here it seems that Seven stars were both on Arnor and Gondor's banners - which is possible, weren't they all Elendil's descendants?
I've never been able to confirm anything about it.