Post by Duilin on Aug 30, 2007 5:48:52 GMT
Nice post, Duilin and I agree with most of your points.
I believe that there's several discrepancies between the Tale of Years and the Line of Elros in UT. I don't have UT in front of me, though, so I can't check. Doesn't the Line of Elros suggest that Tar-Minastir was not King when his fleet saved Gil-galad? Presumably the Line of Elros has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Sure, there are some discrepancies - but we don't really know which text was written later. Also Christopher amended some things that he considered mistakes in the Line of Elros - but we don't know if he read it correctly. So, now we have Minastir's problem, his father Isilmo's problem (because Isilmo should have been alive in 1700 - so why the scepter passed to his son?) and worst of all Tar-Atanamir problem.
In the tale of Years: "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear".
In the Line of Elros Atanamir dies in 2221 which was amended from 2251.
Now, as Olmer pointed out, if the Tale of Years is correct while the Line of Elros is not, either Tar-Minastir or more likely Tar Ciryatan has to be a nazgul, as the two guys together ruled for 551 years.
That's why my Agannalo is blond
And that's why I made the Hillmen Gods modified Valar.
"Gwathuirim" are discussed in HOME 12 I believe. I didn't read it carefully ebnough to remember whether the Hillmen differed ethnically from the Dunlendings. Perhaps they did to some extent.
The Hillmen remained warlike and uncivilised, it seems, but that might have been due to Arnor racist policy of "no mixing". In Gondor they were not so adamant, that's why by 1944 there were not enough families with "pure enough blood" to take the crown.
I believe that there's several discrepancies between the Tale of Years and the Line of Elros in UT. I don't have UT in front of me, though, so I can't check. Doesn't the Line of Elros suggest that Tar-Minastir was not King when his fleet saved Gil-galad? Presumably the Line of Elros has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Sure, there are some discrepancies - but we don't really know which text was written later. Also Christopher amended some things that he considered mistakes in the Line of Elros - but we don't know if he read it correctly. So, now we have Minastir's problem, his father Isilmo's problem (because Isilmo should have been alive in 1700 - so why the scepter passed to his son?) and worst of all Tar-Atanamir problem.
In the tale of Years: "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear".
In the Line of Elros Atanamir dies in 2221 which was amended from 2251.
Now, as Olmer pointed out, if the Tale of Years is correct while the Line of Elros is not, either Tar-Minastir or more likely Tar Ciryatan has to be a nazgul, as the two guys together ruled for 551 years.
when clearly Númenor itself was largely full of blondes (given that the Folk of Marach had by far the most survivors from the First Age, and had, in any event, always been the largest of t he three).
That's why my Agannalo is blond
The Hill-men would have always been in the shadow of Imladris, and within Gil-galad's sphere of influence in the Second Age.
And that's why I made the Hillmen Gods modified Valar.
There's a lot of cool stuff in this thread, and I'm sure I've forgotten much that I wanted to say as I was reading along. In terms of the Gwathuirim (where is that term used by Tolkien?), we seem to have two types. On the one hand, those who accept the rule of the Dúnedain - e.g. the men of Bree, the folks of the Gondor side of the White Mountain vales. On the other side we have those who reject it - primarily the Dunlendings. Of which sort were the people of Minhiriath in the Third Age, and the people of the rest of Cardolan more broadly? We certainly don't have any indication that they gave nearly as much trouble as the Hillmen of Rhudaur, and even the Dunlendings seem to have mostly started with the hating after the Rohirrim showed up. But why is this? The Hill-men would have always been in the shadow of Imladris, and within Gil-galad's sphere of influence in the Second Age, and they had no pre-existing cause of strife with the Númenoreans, prior to Elendil's establishment of Arnor. On the other hand, the Gwathuirim had all their forests cut down, and were either a) oppressed by the Númenoreans; or b) under Sauron's influence during the Dark Years. Tarannon had, apparently, to conduct military campaigns to conquer Anfalas and Enedwaith (he "extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the Mouths of Anduin"), which never seems to have been necessary in Rhudaur. And yet the Gwathuirim of both Gondor and Cardolan seem to have been as meek as mice most of the time, while the Hillmen of Rhudaur were making crazy trouble.
I'd say that, if Bree is any example, the key issue is that in Cardolan (and, of course, Gondor), the alien peoples were civilized by the establishment of a relatively urban, well populated society, while in the north the population was sparse enough, and the people backwards enough, to never really be assimilated to the same extent. Enedwaith, which seems to have been similarly sparsely populated, was where the Dunlendings arose from...the presence of Angmar to the north of Rhudaur probably had a major effect, as well. But we really know so little of the Hillmen from Tolkien, don't we?
I'd say that, if Bree is any example, the key issue is that in Cardolan (and, of course, Gondor), the alien peoples were civilized by the establishment of a relatively urban, well populated society, while in the north the population was sparse enough, and the people backwards enough, to never really be assimilated to the same extent. Enedwaith, which seems to have been similarly sparsely populated, was where the Dunlendings arose from...the presence of Angmar to the north of Rhudaur probably had a major effect, as well. But we really know so little of the Hillmen from Tolkien, don't we?
"Gwathuirim" are discussed in HOME 12 I believe. I didn't read it carefully ebnough to remember whether the Hillmen differed ethnically from the Dunlendings. Perhaps they did to some extent.
The Hillmen remained warlike and uncivilised, it seems, but that might have been due to Arnor racist policy of "no mixing". In Gondor they were not so adamant, that's why by 1944 there were not enough families with "pure enough blood" to take the crown.
. I think the edit and quote buttons are opposite from those over at Entmoot. I'm on another board, too, and those are definitely opposite, so it's easy to hit the wrong one.