Beruthiel: Cat-lover or cat-hater?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Original thread:
z3.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Kingdom/index.php?showtopic=42
Gordis

I think this thread may be of interest to this community, full of cat-persons.

We know very little of the Queen Beruthiel. One passage is in the UT, another in an interview given by Tolkien in 1966. I give both passages here in full, so all we know about the poor woman is here.

Unfinished Tales:

"Even the story of Queen Berúthiel does exist, however, if only in a very "primitive" outline, in one part illegible. She was the nefarious, solitary, and loveless wife of Tarannon, twelfth King of Gondor (Third Age 830-913) and first of the "Ship-kings", who took the crown in the name of Falastur "Lord of the Coasts," and was the first childless king (The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, I, ii and iv). Berúthiel lived in the King's House in Osgiliath, hating the sounds and smells of the sea and the house that Tarannon built below Pelargir "upon arches whose feet stood deep in the wide waters of Ethir Anduin;" she hated all making, all colours and elaborate adornment, wearing only black and silver and living in bare chambers, and the gardens of the house in Osgiliath were filled with tormented sculptures beneath cypresses and yews. She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things "that men wish most to keep hidden," setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. No man in Gondor dared touch them; all were afraid of them, and cursed when they saw them pass. What follows is almost wholly illegible in the unique manuscript, except to the ending, which states that her name was erased from the Book of the Kings ("but the memory of men is not wholly shut in books, and the cats of Queen Berúthiel never passed wholly out of men's speech"), and that King Tarannon had her set on a ship alone with her cats and set adrift on the sea before a north wind. The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow."

From the interview (1966)
here

"There’s one exception that puzzles me—Berúthiel. I really don’t know anything of her—you remember Aragorn’s allusion in Book I to the cats of Queen Berúthiel, that could find their way home on a blind night? She just popped up, and obviously called for attention, but I don’t really know anything certain about her; though, oddly enough, I have a notion that she was the wife of one of the ship-kings of Pelargir. She loathed the smell of the sea, and fish, and the gulls. Rather like Skadi, the giantess, who came to the gods in Valhalla, demanding a recompense for the accidental death of her father. She wanted a husband. The gods all lined up behind a curtain, and she selected the pair of feet that appealed to her most. She thought she’d got Baldur, the beautiful god, but it turned out to be Njord, the sea-god, and after she’d married him, she got absolutely fed up with the seaside life, and the gulls kept her awake, and finally she went back to live in Jotunheim.

"Well, Berúthiel went back to live in the inland city, and went to the bad (or returned to it—she was a black Númenorean in origin, I guess). She was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about—you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I’m afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them—trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them."

I should very much have liked to hear more about Queen Berúthiel, who sent a pleasant grue down my spine-it is not often you have the chance to listen to an entirely new story from your favourite storyteller.

But, as Professor Tolkien had said, he did not really know much more to tell me."

I have always thought Beruthiel was a regular cat-lover who suffered greatly because of her pets, actually perished at sea with them But this Tolkien interview depicts her in quite a different light: as a cat-hater!

Aren’t the two text contradictory? Or have I grossly misunderstood the first text? Or was Tolkien (a cat-hater himself) totally unrealistic here – as cats wouldn’t follow a person who hates them?

Any ideas?

Witch-king of Angmar

Gordis, I have never thought of Beruthiel as a cat lover. I thought of her more as a witch who used her cats as "familiars." I don't know if the cats liked her. Perhaps they hated her. Perhaps they were not really even real cats, but spirits who took the form of cats, or spirits possessing or trapped within the bodies of cats. Whatever they were, I don't think Queen Beruthiel liked the cats or anyone else. I see her as someone who uses others for her own purposes.

Now as to whether cats will follow strangers. It depends on the cat, I think. There are some cats who are silly, happy and friendly, who love everyone, something like dogs. These cats will go with strangers, because basically they are not too bright. *grins*

Then there are skittish cats who will run from anyone or anything.

Then there are the cats who are friendly to people but only on their on territory when their owners are close by.

There is no one personality type for cats. Each one is an individual. I know. I have lived around them over 60 years.

My daughter's cat is the arrogant black and yellow tabby who must be worshipped. She is the queen. However, when my daughter goes on a walk in the woods - if that cat can get out, she will be right after my daughter, and the positions are reversed. The cat now is the worshipper, seeming to think she is the protector of my daughter. Why? Who knows. I am not intelligent enough to figure out the mind of a cat. Maybe the cat is right.

I come from a long line of cat lovers. My father loved them - that is, except when they were noisy at night. *grins*

Gordis

Really? Perhaps you are right and I misunderstood Beruthiel. But surely in that I am not alone, as there are tons of angsty fanfics about her being punished for her attachment to her pets. (The chief of the authors is Werecat)

Sure cats have different personalities. But I have never seen a cat who deliberately followes a person who hates them. Have you?

Yes, my family also had cats all along. I got my first "personal" kitten at the age of five and was greatly concerned that it might venture too far away from the house and get lost. So I followed my kitten everywhere, and would have been lost myself on a hundred occasions, if not for my kitten, who knew the way perfectly well. I simply followed

Witch-king of Angmar

Gordis, I could be wrong about Beruthiel. Her being a witch and the ten cats her familiars is just my take on it.

"Sure cats have different personalities. But I have never seen a cat who deliberately followes a person who hates them. Have you?"

I have known a lot of cats in my life, and I have never known any cat to do anything that strange, not even my father's favorite cat, who was neurologically injured and not bright at all. Generally cats are standoffish of strangers, at least the cats I have been around.

Alcuin

I know a woman who hates cats, but they love her and love to rub against her, follow her, talk to her: my mother. She swears she doesn’t hate them, but she doesn’t want to touch them, and she isn’t very happy about having them around her feet or even in the same room with her, and definitely not sitting in her lap! My first cousin (my mother’s sister’s son) is deathly allergic to them, and he actively despises them: cats love him: he’s like a cat magnet. Berúthiel was obviously cruel as well as beautiful (“Berúthiel” is both assonant and consonant with “beautiful,” is it not?) and put the little beasties to evil purposes, as befit her interest in Morgul.

Tarannon Falastur probably married Berúthiel to cement an alliance with one of the Black Númenórean kingdoms south of Umbar. When she left Pelargir aboard ship, that was effectively a divorce – and war broke out between Gondor and the kingdoms in Harad and along the southern coasts almost immediately.

Falastur, Tarannon’s sobriquet, means “Lord of Coasts,” essentially the same as that of the twenty-second king of Númenor, Ar-Sakalthôr, in Quenya Tar-Falassion, “King of Coasts.” There may be a political purpose focused on Númenórean history (which the Black Númenóreans would likely still recall as their own, common history with the Dúnedain of Gondor) in the selection of the name.

Falastur was king of Gondor at the same time that Eärendur was king of Arnor. After Eärendur’s reign, Arnor splintered into three kingdoms. Michael Martinez has speculated that the two younger sons of Eärendur might have been in Gondor during this period and seen Falastur’s military glory. Others have speculated that they were possibly caught up in Berúthiel’s interest in and practice of Morgul.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Interesting, Alcuin, this story about your mother and your cousin. But perhaps your mother, though not too fond of cats, was the one who fed them?

As for Beruthiel, I don't think it is said that she was beautiful. I think she may have been, to be eligible as a future queen.

But it was hardly a great love that brought Tarannon an Beruthiel together, indeed, it was most likely a purely political union. I think it meant to bring reconciliation with ALL the Black Numenorean Kingdoms, Umbar included, not only with her petty inland hometown.

But more important is another aspect, IMO. Beruthiel had to be of High Numenorean lineage, a pure-blood descendant of Elros, to be eligible to become Queen. Remember what a fuss there was when Valacar married Vidumavi, a Rhovanion princess? It seems it was an unprecedented step for a King's Heir to marry a foreigner. So we can assume that it was never done before, so Beruthiel had been eligible. If Tarannon married someone of lesser blood, he would have been obliged to relinquish his claim to the throne, and pass it to the next in line. But there was no talk of such an issue at the time.

I think it is likely that at the moment of the Downfall there were some members of the Royal family, not of the Line of Andunie, but of the Main line, ruling Umbar, southern fortresses and maybe even Pelargir.
Descendants of Elros must have become quite numerous by the time of the Downfall, even allowing for the fact thar they mostly intermarried between themselves, only avoiding first cousins. Some of them surely must have found their way to ME and settled there.

If one of the Main line ruled Umbar, it is quite understandable that he wouldn't bow to the lesser house of Andunie, and "traitors to the King", to boot. I also suppose that Herumor and Fuinur were of the Main line, survivors of the Downfall. Probably either Herumor or Fuinur was Beruthiel's ancestor. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Mouth of Sauron was their much later descendant.

Alcuin

Perhaps there were representatives of the male line of succession from Elros in Middle-earth after the Akallabêth. I think that most of them went to war against Aman and were destroyed. It is noteworthy that the rule that a King of Númenor had to marry another member of the House of Elros “was never a law, but became a custom of pride” that arose “‘when the distinction between the Line of Elros and other families, in life-span, vigor, or ability, had diminished or altogether disappeared.’” (Unfinished Tales, “Aldarion and Erendis”, footnote 27)

On the other hand, I do not doubt that Berúthiel’s family had descent from Elros, perhaps by a female line. Her family could not claim precedence in nobility over Andúnië, which was second only to the Royal House in nobility. Tolkien remarks at one point that it is likely that the Stewards of Gondor could trace their descent to Anárion, but that did not make them royalty. I have seen figures recently from genealogists that indicate that 80% of Englishmen and Americans of English ancestry are descended from one or another of England’s kings (often Edward III, who had 16 children by his wife and his mistress).

It is an interesting idea, though, that some nobleman or another of royal descent might have left his children at home at his posting in Middle-earth while he joined the glorious attack on Aman. It was Eärnil I, Falastur’s nephew, who first conquered Umbar in III 933. The military and political necessities of taking Umbar are obvious, but maybe there was also a dynastic dispute to settle, too.

By the way, these are random cats that like my mother and especially my cousin. Go to someone’s house, and out comes the “timid cat who never has anything to do with strangers.”

Gordis

I don't think that such a strong place as Umbar, Ar-Pharazon's pride (wasn't there a great monument erected after his victory over Sauron?) was left without a Governor even when the Armada sailed West. This governor could hardly be anything less than one of the Royal house. And sure, even those who sailed with the fleet left children behind. By the War of the Last Alliance the children would have been full-grown men and likely fought for Sauron.


QUOTE
Silm: And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.

Note: "lords both mighty and evil", IMO could refer only to the representatives of the Royal house. There were several left, Herumor and Fuinur were only the nearest to Gondor, the rest dwelt further South.

And I am sure there was a dynastic dispute as well - from the very beginning. The survivors of the Main line surely were closer to the Throne of Numenor than the line of Andunie, that branched off the tree quite early. Sure Elendil and sons thought that the Main Line had forfeithed its right to rule, but Herumor and Fuinur would hardly agree, would they? There likely was someone who declared himself King in exile.

If there had been such an issue, and Beruthiel was a descendant of such a pretender from the Main line, then marrying her was a very clever move on Tarannon's part, an only way to settle the dynastic dispute once and for all and have peace with their Southern kin.

And at the time (around TA 700-800), Sauron was long gone, so the Black numenoreans didn't serve him any more. They may have remained Morgoth-worshippers, but that could have been changed in time, once the dynastic dispute was settled. It was a good time for reconciliation.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

I don’t think Morgoth-worship ever ended among the Black Númenóreans. The 1966 interview you cited in your first post, Gordis, indicates that Berúthiel was either already involved in worshipping the Dark when she married Tarannon or began the practice shortly thereafter. The first seems the more plausible explanation.

The Nazgûl had to hide somewhere during the centuries following the first defeat of Barad-dûr at the end of the Second Age. The first several hundred years might have been spent inland, the East, whence some of them (such as Khamûl) must have come: the coastlands would at first have been unsafe in the event that ships arrived from Pelargir, Lond Daer, or Lindon: if they discovered a Nazgûl in port, the next arrival would be a fleet to “get him.” (Never mind that the Dúnedain and Elves might not understand they couldn’t “get him” – they’d try, and if you’re a Nazgûl, that could ruin the whole year or more: you might not be “killable,” but you can be wounded: hence your “fear of fire.” Now that would be unpleasant!)

Which brings up another thought: the Nazgûl must have realized, either all along or soon after the fact, that the Ruling Ring was not destroyed: they were still “alive,” and the power of their Rings was still intact. They would be inclined to spread (or maintain, as the case might be) whatever befouled “religious” practices they had followed under Sauron.

The Black Númenórean kingdoms along the southern coastlands, while they were no doubt originally quite powerful – once the greatest military force in Middle-earth – their manpower was likely greatly depleted when Ar-Pharazôn led the Númenórean armada against Aman. The bulk of whatever remained of their military might would have been summoned north to Mordor for the War of the Last Alliance, and there mostly annihilated. If the Dúnedain in Arnor and Gondor had trouble maintaining their blood of the West unmingled, the Black Númenóreans were probably far less successful: they were surely fewer in number than the Faithful by the beginning of the Third Age, their society was decrepit well before the end of the Second Age, and they worshipped the Dark already: they were a people ready to be absorbed into the local populace. Not that there would not be families that were more or less Númenórean until well into the Third Age, and some that considered themselves Númenórean and showed Númenórean characteristics until the end of the Third Age (e.g., the aforementioned Mouth of Sauron).

It was the conquest of these Black Númenórean coastal kingdoms and city-states that were the focus of the four Ship-kings of Gondor, I believe. The first of the Ship-kings, Tarannon, was unable to achieve this by diplomacy because of the Morgul practices of Berúthiel, which were spiritually, ethically, and morally repugnant to the Dúnedain of Gondor: he sent her home, an ignominious divorce, which was naturally followed by a generations-long war between Gondor and the other Númenórean kingdoms that competed with it for dominance as the principal successor-kingdom to Númenor. (Arnor should also be considered a Númenórean kingdom that competed with Gondor for dominance as the principal successor-kingdom to Númenor, but it was not in the running, as it were, because of its weakened military and demographic condition following the disaster at Gladden Fields and the death of Isildur and his followers.)

Please pardon the long, rambling post.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Here are my long ramblings...


QUOTE
Alcuin:
"The Nazgûl had to hide somewhere during the centuries following the first defeat of Barad-dûr at the end of the Second Age. The first several hundred years might have been spent inland, the East, whence some of them (such as Khamûl) must have come..."



-Sure, it was told in a footnote in the UT that the Ringwraiths flew East. I think the Easterlings remained there for thousand of years, while the Haradrim most likely returned to Harad.
The problem is with the three Numenoreans, and now, thanks to the Readers companion, we know that the WK was indeed one of them.
Where were they before the WK came to Angmar? As I said before, the BIG question here and one without an answer from the known Tolkien texts is whether the nazgul, using their Rings, could blend into the mortal population and not stand out as scary invisible wraiths.


QUOTE
Alcuin: "the coastlands would at first have been unsafe in the event that ships arrived from Pelargir, Lond Daer, or Lindon: if they discovered a Nazgûl in port, the next arrival would be a fleet to “get him.” (Never mind that the Dúnedain and Elves might not understand they couldn’t “get him” – they’d try, and if you’re a Nazgûl, that could ruin the whole year or more: you might not be “killable,” but you can be wounded: hence your “fear of fire.” Now that would be unpleasant!)"


I believe the nazgul were "killable" allright. I don't think the Cardolani were the first to invent the anti-nazgul blades, likely they somehow rediscovered the secret of High Numenoreans. At the time, right after the Last Alliance, a few anti-nazgul blades might still be around. And I am not even sure that it was an only way to kill a nazgul. Burning might have been also OK.

The coastlands from Umbar and down to the South would have been safe for nazgul, IMO, before Gondor became a Sea-power. Lond Daer was completely destroyed at the moment of the Downfall - even its stone quays. I believe no ships were left whole. Pelargir also suffered greatly. Umbar, because of its splendid natural haven, protected from the sea, must have suffered much less damage. Even if their great sea-going ships were sent to Ar-Pharazon, still coastal shipping must have remained. So, before the times of Sea-Kings, a probability of a ship coming from Pelargir or Lond Daer or Lindon was minimal - and such an enemy ship would have been attacked on sight.


QUOTE
Which brings up another thought: the Nazgûl must have realized, either all along or soon after the fact, that the Ruling Ring was not destroyed: they were still “alive,” and the power of their Rings was still intact.


Here I must disagree. Read the part where the Rings are discussed at the Counsil of Elrond. There was no agreement even among the Wise whether the destruction of the One would lead to the loss of power of the other Rings. Galadriel thought so, Elrond was a bit unsure but agreed with her, but there obviously were other Wise who held the opposite opinion and thought that the other Rings would simply become free. Perhaps Saruman - the one who studied the Ring-lore - was among these? And the Nazgul, how could they know what happens to their Rings if the One was destroyed?

Even Sauron couldn't know the effects of the Ring destruction on himself and other Rings. Otherwise, having taken shape again how could he believe for a sec that the One had been destroyed? He was alive, other Rings were working (wasn't there this enchanted realm of Imladris and later Lorien?). But it is told in LOTR that Sauron thought the One was long destroyed.

But I have no doubt that the nazgul were much interested in the fate of the One. The need to get this info should have lead them back West. They must have learned about Isildur and the Ring either in Arnor or in Gondor.


QUOTE
"They would be inclined to spread (or maintain, as the case might be) whatever befouled “religious” practices they had followed under Sauron."


It is interesting in itself what was the nazgul's place in the dark Morgoth's cult. In Numenor, Sauron posed not as the God, but as the High Priest. But in the Third Age Mordor (and perhaps even at the end of the Second Age, right after his reincarnation) he posed as "Morgoth Returned" - so took the place of a God himself. So nazgul... something like Nine Angels?


QUOTE
"If the Dúnedain in Arnor and Gondor had trouble maintaining their blood of the West unmingled, the Black Númenóreans were probably far less successful: they were surely fewer in number than the Faithful by the beginning of the Third Age, their society was decrepit well before the end of the Second Age, and they worshipped the Dark already: they were a people ready to be absorbed into the local populace."


Yes I agree the Black Numenoreans were fewer then the faithful, therefore had to intermingle with the local population, but so had the Gondorians to a large extent. In Arnor they refused to intermingle, so they have practically become extinct. But worshipping the Dark didn't make the Black Numenoreans less arrogant, did it? They considered the natives of Middle Earth to be far lesser people and oppressed them cruelly. I think, they married outside their race as a last resort only.

I think both Pelargir and Umbar were always distant military outposts of Numenor, hardly 100% normal cities. That means soldiers and mariners served their term there and returned home to the island, few had families in Umbar itself. In Gondor this situation changed, when Elendil and sons brought full ships of refugees with them, and there must have been a lot of Andunie women. So in Pelargir and young Gondor the population was not so unbalanced as in Umbar, where only some of the mariners and soldiers left behind by the Armada must have remained. There should have been very few numenorean women in Umbar and those hardly were ladies....Perhaps, for the Black Numenoreans, the major intermixing with barbarians happened only once or twice, the first time right after the Downfall, when few pureblood lords had to marry numenorean girls of far lesser bloodlines and soldiers and mariners had to settle for haradian girls. The next generation would be intermarrying between themselves already. Then of course, the disaster of the Last Alliance happened and another major intermixing might have occurred.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

I have to agree on everything except the numbers of Númenórean women in Middle-earth, and that only in the North, where the Faithful were concentrated in what later became Gondor and Arnor, and there we are not far apart.

In the incomplete story of “Tal-Elmar”, the mother of the protagonist is clearly a Númenórean colonist. Now I don’t know if that was supposed to be midway through the Second Age or toward the end of it, but the Númenóreans were definitely establishing colonies in Middle-earth, and that implies permanent settlement by some of the Dúnedain. I have to agree that living in Númenor was preferable: the lifespans of those who lived in Middle-earth a few generations must have declined, as they did in the Third Age, and the colonists could not have failed to notice this. While greed must have motivated the King’s Men to colonize, and fear motivated the Faithful, these could hardly have been the leading lights of Númenor: the grandees and noblemen must have maintained their homes on the island, as you suggest, and only moved their families to Middle-earth for convenience (for them) during a term of assignment. It might even have been a badge of the upper class in Númenor to have lived briefly in Middle-earth, similar to kids today whose parents were posted for a year or two in another country.

It was those Faithful colonists who had fled Númenor in the final centuries of the Second Age, probably the poor and middle-class of the Númenórean Faithful who were unable to reconcile their faith with the increasingly aggressive heresy and apostasy of Ar-Gimilzôr and Ar-Pharazôn, coupled with vigorous and painful persecution. It was these permanent colonists, fugitives from the wicked kings of Númenor at the end of its history that formed the basis of the Dúnedain yeomanry of Gondor and Arnor.

Gordis

I agree with everything you said in your last post, Alcuin.

Especially interesting is your theory that the lifespan of the Numenoreans who settled in ME comparatively early in the Second Age must have declined more than the average lifespan in Numenor itself.

But the early colonists tended to settle around Vinyalonde-Lond Daer, and close to Gil-Galad's realm in Lindon. Pelargir and Umbar became important much later - after SA 1800, IIRC.

Therefore, these early colonists' descendants with diminished lifespan later constituted a large part of Arnor population. Maybe that was the cause of the phenomenon you described in your article "Decline of the lifespan..." proving that the lifespan of an average Arnorian was shorter than that of an average Gondorian (at least if we judge by their kings)?

Then, if it is true, right before the Downfall the lifespan in Pelargir would be longer than in Lond Daer, as most of the settlers in Pelargir and on the coast nearby were refugees from the time of Gimilzor and Pharazon. The lifespan in Umbar should have been longer still as most of the people there were King's men who never abandoned their roots in Numenor - not really settlers, but temporary visitors.
Unless, of course, we have another factor: the lifespan of all who worshipped Dark diminished more than that of the Faithful.

Then comes Elendil and Sons and full shiploads of refugees from Andunie. They mixed with Pelargir population of settlers and with the earlier settlers in what became Arnor, rising the average lifespan in both places. And Umbarians had no fresh blood influx and started to intermarry with Haradians, diminishing their lifespan further.

What do you think?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 11 2006, 04:03 PM)
…the early colonists tended to settle around Vinyalonde-Lond Daer, and close to Gil-Galad's realm in Lindon. Pelargir and Umbar became important much later - after SA 1800, IIRC.

The “Tale of Years” for the Second Age in “Appendix B” in RotK has these notes on the Númenórean havens in Middle-earth, with the inevitable comments from me in square brackets. The entries not related to ports have been excised without further indication.
QUOTE
600 – First Númenórean ships appear off the coast. [That would be Vëantur, Captain of the King’s Ships during the reign of Tar-Elendil. Vëantur’s daughter Almarian was wife to Tar-Elendil’s eldest son, who became Tar-Meneldur, father of Tar-Aldarion.]
c. 1000 – Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenóreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. [I.e., the Númenóreans were landing and coming inland enough to create problems for him.]
1200 – The Númenóreans begin to make permanent havens. [Tar-Aldarion had begun the construction of Vinyalondë, but Tolkien says that Tar-Ancalimë ignored his alliance with Gil-galad; however, 1200 is almost smack-dab in the middle of her reign.]
1700 – Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor. [The Númenórean admiral Ciryatur landed a force at Vinyalondë behind Sauron’s front lines, using it as a hammer to smash Sauron’s armies against the anvil that was the line of the Lhûn held by the combined armies of Lindon and Númenor.]
c. 1800 – …the Númenóreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts.
2280 – Umbar is made into a great fortress of Númenor. [This would have been during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon, whose father Tar-Atanamir the Great rejected the Ban of the Valar and the advice of the Embassy from Aman.]
2350 - Pelargir is built. It is the chief haven of the Faithful Númenóreans.


A few thoughts on this.
Vinyalondë (later Lond Daer] is not listed as a major Númenórean port, nor as a refuge or destination for the Faithful. I think that is because Vinyalondë was not so much a port for commerce as a shipyard; hence the undying enmity of the Númenóreans’ unrecognized cousins, the descendants of the Second house who later became the Dunlendings, the Men of the White Mountains, and the Men of Bree. (That’s why there were Drúadan living in Andrast and Drúadan Forest (remember Ghân-buri-Ghân?), and the Púkel-men on the switch-back road to Dunharrow.) If Vinyalondë was primarily a shipyard and not a transit point, that would explain both why Sauron ignored it and why it was quickly abandoned during the Third Age after the great forests of Eriador had been devastated during the Second Age.
Umbar was “made into a great fortress” – that implies the Umbar existed as port facility, but it was fortified for use as a base. The reason was probably hostility from Mordor (the Úlairi had appeared by this time: what in the world were they? the Dúnedain must have wondered), but the purpose became the domination of Harad and the lands south and east. I think Umbar was probably a Númenórean haven by 1800, founded upon an already existing-settlement of Haradrim, who were dispossessed. (No doubt the Númenóreans have bequeathed their masters of jurisprudence to the American Supreme Court, where corrupt imminent domain is now as legal as it was for the poor Haradrim. Sorry, couldn’t resist a cheap shot.) (Hence the comment in “Appendix F” in RotK: “A few [names] were of forgotten origin, and descended doubtless form before the ships of the Númenóreans sailed the Sea: among these were Umbar, Arnach, and Erech.)
Pelargir was originally near Edhellond, which was an Sindarin port: the intention of the Sindar was to have their own port away from the Noldorin realm of Lindon: many of the Sindar (and probably their Silvan kin) had not yet forgiven the Noldor, or at least had not forgotten Morgoth’s lies about them, to which there was, unfortunately, a grain of truth (sc., Alqualondë).



QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 11 2006, 04:03 PM)
Therefore, these early colonists' descendants with diminished lifespan later constituted a large part of Arnor population. Maybe that was the cause of the phenomenon you described in your article "Decline of the lifespan..." proving that the lifespan of an average Arnorian was shorter than that of an average Gondorian (at least if we judge by their kings)?

I want to think about that; but it sounds reasonable. Valandil has suggested that the presence of the White Tree might also have had an effect: the Gondorian kings lived an average 20% longer than Arnorian rulers; but once the White Tree died during the Stewardship of Belecthor II, the lifespans of both the Stewards and the Princes of Dol Amroth decreased by 20%. The White Tree was replanted by Aragorn II, and lo and behold, Faramir lives 20% longer than his forbears. (But not the Princes of Dol Amroth: they went on with their shorter lives. Oh, well.) I think Valandil’s suggestion bears considerable weight, as does yours.


QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 11 2006, 04:03 PM)
…right before the Downfall the lifespan in Pelargir would be longer than in Lond Daer… The lifespan in Umbar should have been longer still as most of the people … never abandoned their roots in Numenor … but [were] temporary visitors.

I suspect that the Second Age Númenóreans were settled mostly away from the regions around Pelargir that later became Gondor and the stretch of Eriador between Imladris and Lindon that later became Arnor: I think they were mostly around Umbar and the lands to the south, which the Númenóreans were exploiting for the wealth they could extract. I think Vinyalondë was primarily a shipyard, an industrial center: that’s where the temporary inhabitants would more likely be found. Following this pattern, the largest single Númenórean settlement should have been Umbar, which I suspect had a large, permanent population of Númenóreans. My bet would be that this is where the Dúnedain first noticed that their lives were shortening, a fact they probably attributed to living in Middle-earth, and properly so; but if they were getting rich, and they had begun to succumb to greed, both of which seem likely, they might have tolerated it in the beginning. While the Faithful were undoubtedly a greater proportion of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth by the beginning of the Third Age, I think the implication is that there may have been many settlements along the coastlands that are not mentioned because they were controlled by the Kings’ Men; and of these, only Umbar, the largest of all the Númenórean settlements, is named.


QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 11 2006, 04:03 PM)
Then comes Elendil and Sons and full shiploads of refugees from Andunie. They mixed with Pelargir population of settlers and with the earlier settlers in what became Arnor, rising the average lifespan in both places. And Umbarians had no fresh blood influx and started to intermarry with Haradians, diminishing their lifespan further.

There were nine ships in Elendil’s flotilla that escaped the Downfall of Númenor. At one point, Tolkien discusses how the people on these ships were vastly outnumbered by the Dúnedain already in Middle-earth, who by comparison to their Númenórean-bred kinsfolk were already rather rustic. (Few of the Dúnedain already in Middle-earth were likely of noble birth, though a few of them were, no doubt.) There is another matter that we might also consider, and that is the nature of the non-Dúnedain folk around whom the Númenórean exiles lived. In Arnor and Gondor, these people were mostly descendents or relatives of the Second House of the Edain (yes, even the wicked Men of Dunharrow), and not the “alien” Easterlings. The King’s Men in the southward colonies, however, were stuck with Haradrim and folk from Khand in the north part (that is, to the borders of Gondor and Mordor: the revenge of taking by imminent domain), and who-knows-what further south. Berúthiel was apparently from an inland city south of Umbar founded by Númenóreans and ruled by their descendants; but that is really the only other settlement of that sort of which we have any specific report in the Third Age. It might be that Umbar survived with a distinct ruling class of Black Númenóreans longest because of regular infusions from Gondor during the Third Age, either because Umbar was conquered by Gondor, because Umbar raided Dúnedain settlements in Gondor, or because rebels and renegades fleeing Gondor headed for Umbar as a, pardon the expression, “safe haven.”

Gordis, it’s very dangerous to ask me what I think. It is akin to asking Thorin Oakenshield to make a speech. He’s happy to oblige – and oblige, and oblige, and oblige. Oh, Thorin means well, but he never knows when to quit.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

Alcuin, Gordis - I don't recall it, but is there anything written that precludes Beruthiel being from Umbar itself?

Valandil

QUOTE (Alcuin @ Sep 11 2006, 11:43 PM)


QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 11 2006, 04:03 PM)
Therefore, these early colonists' descendants with diminished lifespan later constituted a large part of Arnor population. Maybe that was the cause of the phenomenon you described in your article "Decline of the lifespan..." proving that the lifespan of an average Arnorian was shorter than that of an average Gondorian (at least if we judge by their kings)?

I want to think about that; but it sounds reasonable. Valandil has suggested that the presence of the White Tree might also have had an effect: the Gondorian kings lived an average 20% longer than Arnorian rulers; but once the White Tree died during the Stewardship of Belecthor II, the lifespans of both the Stewards and the Princes of Dol Amroth decreased by 20%. The White Tree was replanted by Aragorn II, and lo and behold, Faramir lives 20% longer than his forbears. (But not the Princes of Dol Amroth: they went on with their shorter lives. Oh, well.) I think Valandil’s suggestion bears considerable weight, as does yours.



A couple things to mention here:

1. The White Tree wins over a declined Numenorean lifespan in Arnor in at least Valandil's case. That is, if we assume that Isildur's wife was as much full-blooded Numenorean as Anarion's wife (or if someone wants to suggest that Valandil came from a second wife of Isildur - partly due to the great age difference between himself and his brothers - but I still think that's a stretch). Valandil lived to be 260, but Meneldil, son of Anarion - lived to be 280. In fact, it was Tarannon Falastur, 9 generations after Meneldil, who was the first to live a full life that was shorter than Valandil's (259 - his father Siriondil lived to 260). By this time, the kings in Arnor were only living to 221 (Earendur) or 220 (Amlaith) - and that's with fewer generations separating them from Elendil! So - with so much difference in the royal houses, I suggest either the White Tree - or else a great difference in the heritage of Isildur's and Anarion's wives.

2. A correction about the house of Stewards. It's not that their lifespans shortened sharply after Belecthor II and the White Tree died in the same year. Rather, their lifespans had been shortening (less regularly than the kings), and Belecthor II lived an exceptionally long time - even for them. You have to go back 12 generations to find an ancestor who outlived him! I suggest that if the presence of the White Tree meant anything, it was mostly representative of a blessing on the Royal House - perhaps without the same notable effects on the House of Stewards. I also suggest that there may have been something special about Belecthor II. Either he was a very honorable man - or that he especially tended the White Tree. Anyway - I suppose there was meant to be SOMETHING special about him, which went untold. Except that the fact that he lived so long, and that he and the White Tree died at the same time, must signify something about him.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

QUOTE (Valandil @ Sep 12 2006, 11:03 AM)
2. A correction about the house of Stewards. It's not that their lifespans shortened sharply after Belecthor II and the White Tree died in the same year. Rather, their lifespans had been shortening (less regularly than the kings), and Belecthor II lived an exceptionally long time - even for them. You have to go back 12 generations to find an ancestor who outlived him! I suggest that if the presence of the White Tree meant anything, it was mostly representative of a blessing on the Royal House - perhaps without the same notable effects on the House of Stewards. I also suggest that there may have been something special about Belecthor II. Either he was a very honorable man - or that he especially tended the White Tree. Anyway - I suppose there was meant to be SOMETHING special about him, which went untold. Except that the fact that he lived so long, and that he and the White Tree died at the same time, must signify something about him.


There is a sudden and decided drop in the trend in the lifespans of the Stewards after the death of Belecthor II. See the chart and data in “The Lifespans of the Ruling Stewards of Gondor and the Lords of Dol Amroth”. The trendline in the lifespans of the Princes of Dol Amroth is essentially unchanged through this period.

Gordis

QUOTE (Valandil @ Sep 12 2006, 02:40 PM)
Alcuin, Gordis - I don't recall it, but is there anything written that precludes Beruthiel being from Umbar itself?


Only that mention of the inland town south of Umbar where she was from - see the text of the interview in my first post in this thread.

Also it makes sense: hardly anyone born in a great haven like Umbar would hate the Sea as she did.

Gordis

QUOTE
Alcuin:
"Vinyalondë (later Lond Daer] is not listed as a major Númenórean port, nor as a refuge or destination for the Faithful. I think that is because Vinyalondë was not so much a port for commerce as a shipyard; hence the undying enmity of the Númenóreans’ unrecognized cousins, the descendants of the Second house who later became the Dunlendings, the Men of the White Mountains, and the Men of Bree. (That’s why there were Drúadan living in Andrast and Drúadan Forest (remember Ghân-buri-Ghân?), and the Púkel-men on the switch-back road to Dunharrow.) If Vinyalondë was primarily a shipyard and not a transit point, that would explain both why Sauron ignored it and why it was quickly abandoned during the Third Age after the great forests of Eriador had been devastated during the Second Age."

Alcuin, are you sure that Dunelandings etc. were descendants of the Second House (Hador?). I thought they were unrelated to the Three houses.

The Druedain surely were not their kin, and probably they were much more friendly to the Numenoreans than the Dunlandic peoples. Weren't some of them living in Numenor itself?

I think Vinyalonde was both a shipyard and a major port, but then trees were gone and the King's men quarrelled with the Elves (those of Lindon likely included)- so the importance of Lond Daer decreased. I won't be surprised if the felling of trees was one of the reasons of coldness between Gil Galad and the Numenoreans, apparent after the war of 1700.
(By the way for thousands of years Cirdan built ship after ship and sent them to Eressea never to return - what forests has HE destroyed?)

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 12 2006, 03:50 PM)
Alcuin, are you sure that Dunelandings etc. were descendants of the Second House (Hador?). I thought they were unrelated to the Three houses.

The language of the Folk of Haleth was unrelated (or at best, only distantly related) to those of the House of Bëor and the People of Marach. (This is from Unfinished Tales, “The Drúedain”, and from Peoples of Middle-earth: the language of the House of Bëor was always the related tongue, and that of either the Second or Third House was unrelated; Christopher Tolkien seems to think in “The Problem of Ros” that his father settled on the Second House being unrelated so that the people of Númenor recognized the such groups as the Rohirrim as kinsfolk, but not the Gwathuirim who lived in the forests of Eriador, who were hostile to the Númenóreans because the denuded the forests.) From “Of Dwarves and Men”,
QUOTE
…it must be said that ‘unfriendliness’ to Númenóreans and their allies was not always due to the Shadow, but in later days to the actions of the Númenóreans themselves. Thurs many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Númenóreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with any enemies of Númenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings.


QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 12 2006, 03:50 PM)
The Druedain surely were not their kin, and probably they were much more friendly to the Numenoreans than the Dunlandic peoples. Weren't some of them living in Numenor itself?

There were Drúedain in Númenor. They began to leave to return to Middle-earth after Tar-Aldarion began his voyages, “foreboding that evil would come of them…” (Unfinished Tales, “The Drúedain”, footnote 7) From that time until Sauron was brought there by Ar-Pharazôn, they left Númenor: “one by one, or in twos and threes, they would beg for passages in the great ships that sailed to the North-western shorts of Middle-earth. … none were left when Elendil escaped from the Downfall…”

It is specifically stated in Unfinished Tales, “The Drúedain”, that the Drûg were unrelated to the rest of the Atani.


QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 12 2006, 03:50 PM)
I think Vinyalonde was both a shipyard and a major port, but then trees were gone and the King's men quarrelled with the Elves (those of Lindon likely included)- so the importance of Lond Daer decreased. I won't be surprised if the felling of trees was one of the reasons of coldness between Gil Galad and the Numenoreans, apparent after the war of 1700.
(By the way for thousands of years Cirdan built ship after ship and sent them to Eressea never to return - what forests has HE destroyed?)


We must suppose the Elves were cutting trees from their forests in Lindon. They never denuded the forests the way the Númenóreans did in Eriador (and they bult fewer ships!); and had the Númenóreans acted with proper care and foresight, they would have replanted where they cut, so that the land would never have been deforested. (They did reforest in Númenor.) Whether significant oversight or glaring indifference, this strikes me as a possible mark of the Shadow on the Númenóreans in Middle-earth.

I think cooling relations between the Eldar of Middle-earth and the majority of the Númenóreans probably ran hand-in-hand with the same trouble that led to an ending of relations with the Eldar of Tol Eressëa.

Gordis

Ah, my bad... I thought the Second House was that of Hador... but no, it was that of Haleth..

So fair Erendis was kin to Dunlandings?

By the way, what has become of the House of Hador? They were the most numerous among the Numenoreans, they were golden-haired, and early Kings of Numenor often had golden hair ( Aldarion, for instance). But then, among the Third Age Dunedain most (if not all) were Beoric in appearence - dark hair and grey eyes.

Where are golden-haired Numenoreans? All joined the King's men? Had they some predisposition for evil?

Or was it simply a matter of a slow disappearance of a recessive gene?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

Erendis was the daughter of Beregar of the House of Bëor, descended from the First Age of Bereth daughter of Bregolas and sister to Baragund, father of Morwen and wife of Húrin and mother of Turin, and Belegund, father of Rían wife of Huor and mother of Tuor. Beregar lived in “the west of the Isle” of Númenor (Unfinished Tales, “Aldarion and Erendis”), but we are not told exactly where. Beregar and Erendis were probably akin to Elatan of Andúnië, who married Silmariën daughter and first-born child of Tar-Elendil. I think it is likely that Elatan was the leading nobleman of western Númenor (he must be seen as a suitable match for Silmariën, eldest child of Tar-Elendil), where the descendents of the First House were predominant. Alvin Eriol at SF-Fandom has suggested in this thread on that forum that the Kings of Númenor, as the leaders of the Third House of the Edain, were probably blonde as were most of the Third House by the end of the Second Age; while the Lords of Andúnië, representing the leadership of the First House, were dark-haired as were most of the First House as well as their Dúnedain descendants in Gondor and Arnor in the Third Age. Because of Silmariën, and because we know that the House of Valandil was the leading noble family of Númenor throughout its history, I think we can assume that the Lords of Andúnië were the leaders of what might be called the remnant of the First House centuries before they became the leaders of the Faithful of Númenor.

The unhappy Dunlendings were descended from the Second House of the Edain, among whom the Drúedain lived.

Some of the surviving Edain of Beleriand declined to emigrate to Númenor. Some were not permitted to emigrate: the Elves ferried them to Andúnië, and after a while, the Valar instructed them to stop their transport. In addition, there were kinsfolk of the Three Houses living in Eriador who had never crossed the Ered Luin into Beleriand. It was some representation of these folk that Vëantur met in either Lindon or Eriador at the instigation of the Eldar when the Númenóreans returned to Middle-earth. Faramir assumed the Rohirrim were descended from the Third House and their near kinsfolk.

The First and Third Houses of Men spoke related languages; but the Second House spoke an unrelated language (or one more distantly related), so that the Númenóreans did not at first realize that the Gwathuirim of Eriador were their kinsfolk until considerable enmity had settled between them both. In addition, the Second House were fewer in number that the First and especially the Third House, they spoke their own language mostly among themselves, and besides the loss of leaders to warfare in Beleriand, the deaths and confusion among the Folk of Haleth when their kinsmen Turin and Húrin came among them completely eliminated their ruling class: they may have been absorbed into the rest of Númenórean society and ceased to be a distinct group there. The primary distinction between those Númenóreans descended mostly from the First House and the rest of the Númenóreans, who mostly descended from the far more numerous Third House, was where they lived, from which we might infer that once settled, the Númenóreans were not moving from place to place around the island. After three thousand years, though, there must have been fair-haired Faithful who counted themselves descended of the First House, and dark-haired Kings’ Men who counted themselves descended from the Third House, especially in the cities.

I believe none of the Númenóreans had a particular predisposition for evil; Mankind as a whole, however, is seen in Tolkien’s work that “a darkness lay on the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) [the Eldar] perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends.” (Silmarillion, “Of the Coming of Men into the West:)

Valandil

QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 12 2006, 10:50 AM)

(By the way for thousands of years Cirdan built ship after ship and sent them to Eressea never to return - what forests has HE destroyed?)


I think Cirdan must have carefully managed the forests he gradually harvested trees from - whereas the Numenoreans may have practiced clear-cutting along the Gwathlo.