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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:06:23 GMT
Valandil
Yes - Angmar actually straddled the Misty Mountains - I think there are a few descriptions of it which make that clear - even in Appendix A of LOTR, perhaps.
(can't check for myself now though - gotta scoot - I'll try to find it later if nobody else has posted it)
EDIT: Yes - it's right at the first mention of Angmar in Appendix A:
Gordis
That is right, Val.
Actually I have argued somewhere that East Angmar might have been the oldest part of this Kingdom, which later spread West over the Misty Mountains.
There should have been a pass somewhere near Gundabad and why not below Gundabad? - much like the Moria pass?
Also where did I read about "Gundabad bridge"? I don't remember now. It was a sort of high pass (maybe partly artificial) near this mountain leading into the Vales of Anduin. Anyone remembers it?
QUOTE It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and otehr fell creatures.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:06:50 GMT
Alcuin
I was able to enter this as an “unregistered user.” WKoA, you might want to lock the site. - Alcuin
Gundabad was an old Dwarven city, and the name “Gundabad” is Khuzdul. (Peoples of Middle-earth, “Of Dwarves and Men”, “Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men”.) I believe the root gund- also appears in Felagund, Finrod’s Dwarvish epithet, and I also believe it translates as “caves”. “…its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks [sic] of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks.” (Ibid.) Later in that section, there is a passage concerning Sauron’s expansion during the Second Age, which reads QUOTE For though Moria remained impregnable for many centuries, the Orks reinforced and commanded by servants of Sauron invaded the mountains again. Gundabad was re-taken, the Ered Mithrin infested and the communication between Moria and the Iron Hill for a time cut off.
From that, I think we can draw that possession of Gundabad had been contested over the millennia. After stating near the first citation that the Firebeards and the Broadbeams appeared in the Ered Lindon (The Firebeards were the dwarves of Nogrod and included Telchar, who forged Narsil, the knife Angrist that Beren used to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown, and the Dragon Helm of Dor-Lómin; Nogrod was destroyed in the War of Wrath, and the Gulf of Lhûn opened where it once stood. The Broadbeams were the dwarves of Belegost, which apparently survived the First Age, although many of its folk eventually migrated to Khazad-dûm), it says that the “other two places” Dwarves awoke QUOTE were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Though the four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad.
The Great East Road through the Shire (and perhaps even its bridges over the Baranduin and the Mitheithel) was originally constructed by the Dwarves. It ran over the High Pass near Rivendell (the one Isildur wanted to cross before his unfortunate demise), crossed the Anduin, and was known as the Old Forest Road around Mirkwood. Its terminus was the Iron Hills.
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Now, digging through the Peoples of Middle-earth for information on Angmar, I found this in “The Appendix on Languages”: QUOTE …with the invasion of Arnor by Angmar in Third Age 1409.
It was at this time that the Stoors who had dwelt in the Angle (between Hoarwell and Loudwater) fled west and south, because of the wars, and the dread of Angmar, and because the land and clime of Eriador, especially in the east, worsened and became unfriendly. Some returned to Wilderland, and dwelt beside the Gladden, becoming a riverside people of fishers.
Hint, hint, gollum, gollum. Emphasis mine on the weather: it got colder, and it was harder to survive in eastern Eriador. If you’re role-playing around eastern Eriador, your characters should run into halflings, too: the Fallohides passed through a pass north of Rivendell into Eriador: that would be the Ettenmoors, I think; the Harfoots should already have made it to Bree and Cardolan.
The orcs “became a menace” during the reign of King Malvegil, III 1272 – 1349, sixth king of Arthedain. The Witch-king also came north about that time, according to the Tale of Years. If he was instrumental in the orcs’ conquest of Gundabad, you should encounter Dwarves moving south to Khazad-dûm and back east to the remains of Belegost in the same time period. (This is probably where Thorin was living when Gandalf visited him just before The Hobbit begins: but Belegost is south of Mithlond, not north of it.)
And Gordis, the abandoned dwarf-mines could have been works of the Dwarven inhabitants of Gundabad, abandoned not since the First or Second Age, but the 13th century of the Third Age, about 700 years when Arvedui and his retinue arrived.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:07:32 GMT
Alcuin
I’m logged in now.)
Now the Halfling migration over the Misty Mountains makes sense. The hobbits were fleeing the Necromancer: the Harfoots went first, then the Stoors, and finally the hardier Fallohides, when the Witch-king came north in the 13th century and helped the orcs take control of Mount Gundabad. The dwarves of Gundabad fled east but mostly south. (Bombur has to be a “Broadbeam” from Belegost, by the way ; otherwise, Tolkien could not say that no one’s ancestors in Thorin & Co. had been involved in the dispute between the Dwarves and Elves: the Dwarves of Nogrod killed Thingol.) The halflings must have been fleeing not only from the Necromancer, but also from the Witch-king, and they came into Eriador out of desperation seeking safe harbor among the Dúnedain and their Elvish allies.
Witch-king of Angmar
Alcuin, this is not a problem; unregistered users can post. This board is not public and is not on the search engines, as far as I know. I don't think there will be any troublemakers because of that.
If any should come along, either the moderators or I can kill them.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:08:28 GMT
GordisSorry,Alcuin, I somehow missed your posts here. Probably because I was away when you posted... About the Dwarves. I also feel it very unlikely that Gundabad, once taken by orcs in the Second Age, remained in their hands almost till the end of the Third Age. It doesn't make sense at the begginning of TA. Some Dwarves should have come and retaken it after the victory of the Last Alliance. Arnor was strong at the time, so was Imladris, and there was no evil power left to help the Orcs. Then, I have no doubt that sometime around 1300, Gundabad would be reoccupied by orcs with the help of the Witch-King. The WK wouldn't have an enemy Dwarven stronghold right in the middle of his new kingdom, (and Gundabad also controlled the traffic between Eastern and western Angmar). Unless, of course, the Gundabad Dwarves were in league with the Witch-King. It seems unlikely, and no quote is there to support it. There were some dwarves on the Dark side, but Durin's folk were always with good guys. I think the Angmar Kingdom was first founded in the hospitable lands of the upper Vales of Anduin, before (and maybe long before) 1300. Then Gundabad was occupied by orcs and the northernmost pass through the Mountains, previously controlled by the dwarves, became open to the Witch King. Then he moved to Northern Eriador and founded Carn Dum. So, at the time of our game there would be indeed wandering dwarves on the roads, relatively recently driven out of Gundabad. I think we should introduce them, following Alcuin's suggestion. A dwarf, Anyone??? Maybe you, Serenoli? I remember your Dwarf from "the Wraiths", the one who played cards with your nazgul Tolvadok. He was awesome. I don't even try to suggest a hobbit to anyone. The people here seem to be not too fond of them... ;D Am I wrong? Witch-king of Angmar"I don't even try to suggest a hobbit to anyone. The people here seem to be not too fond of them... Am I wrong?" - Gordis Of all Tolkien's creations, the ones I like the least are hobbits. They are right there with Tom Bombadil and Treebeard. Treebeard always put me to sleep.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:09:13 GMT
Alcuin
I think that the Witch-king was already in the north by the time Arnor fractured after King Eärendur died in III 861. We are never told how Eärendur’s grandfather, Valandur, was killed in III 652.
If someone asked me to speculate, I should say that the Witch-king poisoned the relationship between Tar-Minastir and his son Tar-Ciryatan in the Second Age; and that he also misled Tar-Atanamir into speaking against and rejected the Ban of the Valar. (My theories are laid out on my website; criticism is welcome, but I might be found unreasonably stubborn on those points.)
What that wild speculation in place, I should then speculate that the Witch-king moved north sometime during the seventh century of the Third Age. I think he orchestrated the death of Valandur (I am a conspiracy theorist, you see), who died 111 years (one Dúnadan generation) after his cousin, Rómendacil I of Gondor, died fighting Easterlings. A quick glance of untimely deaths among the rulers of Arnor and Gondor will reveal that when a ruler died violently in one kingdom, his counterpart in the other was often killed, too, or came under attack. Since in this story there is a central source of malice directed against the Dúnedain, I nominate Sauron and his favorite henchmen, the Ringwraiths, as bad guys orchestrating these events.
I will speculate further (hey! that limb I’m on – is it shaky yet?) to suggest that the Witch-king, probably in collusion with one or more of his undead colleagues, helped spread Morgul practices in Arnor, particularly in Rhudaur (see Faramir’s comments that, “‘It is not said that evil arts were ever practiced in Gondor,’” which always struck me as a polite way of saying, but it is said they were in Arnor. “Window on the West”, TT), and was eventually able to inspire the fragmentation of the polity of Arnor, including several nice little civil wars amongst the Dúnedain of the North, so that before Angmar was recognized as a threat to the Dúnedain states, they wantonly killed one another for control of territory, assets, and resources. Divide et impera – “Divide and conquer” – is what the Romans teach us. Answers.com helpfully suggests four techniques for implementing this strategy: QUOTE creating or at least not preventing petty feuds among smaller players. Such feuds drain resources and prevent alliances that could challenge the overlords. aiding and promoting those who are willing to cooperate with the overlords, often by giving them the lands and wealth of rebellious local rulers. fostering distrust and enmity between local rulers. encouraging expenditures on personal frivolities (e.g., showy palaces) that leave little money for political maneuvering and warfare.
and then adds as an afterthought, “This technique requires a lot of skill and political finesse, as well as a good understanding of political science, history and psychology.”
Of course, if the Witch-king and one or two of his companions were already at the north end of the Misty Mountains sowing discord, confusions, and fratricide among the Dúnedain – who naturally assumed that, living between two powerful Elf-kingdoms far from Mordor, ancient and most recent stronghold of their enemies, they were immune to evil outside influences and so could indulge themselves in selfish and short-sighted petty intrigue – they were also in place to topple what might have been a not-too-heavily populated Dwarvish Gundabad. (Possibly neutral, too, as far as the Dwarves were concerned: it was where they held their conclaves, their inter-House gatherings. If so, then Gundabad might have had a less-than-adequate number of defenders; moreover, none of the Dwarf Houses considered it their primary base of operations as were Nogrod, Belegost, and Khazad-dûm: there was no one House unified against outsiders in a bitter tooth-and-nail defense to the last dwarf. Perhaps divide et impera could work here, too.)
If you look, Mount Gundabad is like a lynchpin in the North: control of Gundabad gives you control of Forodwaith, which is otherwise inaccessible for hundreds of miles; control of the northern-most passes across the Misty Mountains; access into northern Eriador, including the ability to raid as you please, since you possess a powerful fortress into which you can withdraw if attacked; access into the northern Vales of Anduin; and access to the Withered Heath, rich in metals, gems, and dragons. If you are attacked from the east, you can get supplies in the west, and if attacked in the west, you can supply yourself from the east. We know the Éothéod moved south down the Vales of Anduin when Angmar was in power, and we also know that Dol Guldur was in operation by around III 1100, from which evil things spread throughout Mirkwood.
So what I speculate is that the Witch-king went north early in the second half of the first millennium of the Third Age. He probably took another Nazgûl with him. Khamûl was assigned Dol Guldur when Sauron returned to Mordor: I suspect he and another Nazgûl or two set it up; and that can only mean that before 1100, they knew that the One Ring had been lost in the marshes around the inflow of the Gladden – and so did Sauron. (The only place Sauron and the Nazgûl would have readily learned this was in Arnor, where what befell Isildur and his military escort must have been more or less common knowledge among the Dúnedain, for whom it was a bitter but vitally important part of national history and identity.) I think the Nazgûl were operating in concert with one another throughout the Third Age, in the north against Arnor, in Mirkwood against Lórien and Thranduil (I suspect that Radagast was originally “assigned” to Rhosgobel, where he and his friends the birds could keep constant vigil on Dol Guldur; he seems to have abandoned Rhosgobel by the time Sauron declared himself, though he was still acting as “scout” or lookout even at the end of the Third Age) and in the East and South against Gondor.
I suspect a supply route, a kind of Third Age “Burma Road” or “Ho Chi Minh Trail” ran through western Mirkwood (as far away as possible from Thranduil’s base of operations) and across the northern Vales of Anduin to Gundabad and so on to Carn Dûm. In fact, I believe that military operations against Arnor were only feasible once Gundabad had been secured, providing a military supply route to Angmar and communications with Dol Guldur. Gundabad apparently fell around III 1300; “King Argeleb I [was] slain in battle in Rhudaur” in III 1356, according to the “Tale of Years”.
But, of course, it’s all speculation. I can’t prove any of it. But it makes sense, and I think it fits all the elements we know in the story.
By the way, we know the dwarves were regular travelers along the Great East-West Road. There were still Dwarf mines in operation in Ered Luin: Belegost, at the south end of the range, seems to have survived into the Fourth Age (though not entirely intact: it was damaged by earthquakes during the War of Wrath in which Beleriand and Nogrod were destroyed); if so, it was then the oldest continually-inhabited Dwarf city about which we are informed.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:10:00 GMT
Gordis
Very interesting Alcuin!
After I finally finish up my "Visitors Come to Court" - maybe I'll have to do my "Division of Arnor" next! Serenoli
QUOTE (Gordis) A dwarf, Anyone??? Maybe you, Serenoli? I remember your Dwarf from "the Wraiths", the one who played cards with your nazgul Tolvadok. He was awesome. I don't even try to suggest a hobbit to anyone. The people here seem to be not too fond of them... Am I wrong?
Yes, I liked the dwarf... if there is a place for a dwarf, I might play one again...
As for hobbits, I like them a lot, but I really can't picture them outside the Shire. Although, it could be argued that Jas (and now Hurgon) was, for all intents and purposes a hobbit in his character... a slightly forgetful one maybe.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:10:39 GMT
Alcuin
QUOTE (Serenoli @ Sep 12 2006, 05:46 PM) As for hobbits, I like them a lot, but I really can't picture them outside the Shire. Although, it could be argued that Jas (and now Hurgon) was, for all intents and purposes a hobbit in his character... a slightly forgetful one maybe.
Aragorn developed from a character originally called “Trotter,” an adventuresome hobbit with wooden shoes. There were halflings in Eriador from the 12 century onwards: Fallohides through the northern passes, and Stoors across the Redhorn Pass. Some of the Stoors originally settled in the Angle: in the right place for you to meet them in Rhudaur.
The Shire was not settled until the beginning of the seventeenth century: not for three hundred more years than your RPG. In your RPG time, the land that would later become “the Shire” was the royal demesne of the King of Arthedain, probably still well-populated and quite prosperous, and bearing another, unrecorded (or unreported) name in Sindarin: that is why the Witch-king never recognized the name of the land for which he was searching in “The Hunt for the Ring”.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:11:19 GMT
Gordis
QUOTE (Alcuin @ Sep 12 2006, 11:14 PM)
The Shire was not settled until the beginning of the seventeenth century: not for three hundred more years than your RPG. In your RPG time, the land that would later become “the Shire” was the royal demesne of the King of Arthedain, probably still well-populated and quite prosperous, and bearing another, unrecorded (or unreported) name in Sindarin: that is why the Witch-king never recognized the name of the land for which he was searching in “The Hunt for the Ring”.
Alcuin, but the closest the WK came to the Shire was in 1974, when the land was called "the Shire", at least by the hobbits that dwelt there. It is not that strange that the WK didn't remember (or hadn't ever heard) the name Shire. What is strange is that "the land of the Halflings" didn't ring a bell in his mind either. A Halfling is a curiosity. There was a lot in the Angle. They were moving through the lands controlled by Angmar. There was a lot of them in Bree. I don't believe the WK has never been in Bree. He should have known that plenty of halflings dwelt in Eriador south of Fornost.
About Valandur. I am afraid you are getting a bit paranoid , Alcuin, blaming everything on the poor ol' Witch-King, starting with weather and down to the death of an obscure 7 century Arnor King. There may be hundred ways for Valandur to meet a violent death. Perhaps he was returning drunk from a feast and fell off his horse, or from tower stairs, and broke his neck? He could have seduced someones's wife and got killed by the husband, he could have attacked a wild boar on a hunt and got killed, he could have fallen ill and died, after all. One premature death proves nothing - certainly not the presence of an Evil overlord in the vicinity.
The division of Arnor happened because Earendur's younger sons were arrogant bastards. There were some arrogant bastards in both the Southern and Northern Lines, and there was a lot of them in the Royal house of Numenor, and no Witch-King was needed to teach them arrogance.
By the way, I would love to discuss your Witch-King article in detail, if you would like it as well. But I warn you, I am not agreeing with everything you wrote. Also I know the subject pretty well, if I say so myself, as it had always fascinated me. Let us open a thread for it?
Serenoli, the Dwarves are yours. We sure need them in the game, specifically Gimilbeth does! I will PM you soon.
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Post by Witch-king of Angmar on Dec 26, 2006 22:12:34 GMT
Alcuin
QUOTE (Gordis @ Sep 12 2006, 07:58 PM) By the way, I would love to discuss your Witch-King article in detail, if you would like it as well. But I warn you, I am not agreeing with everything you wrote. Also I know the subject pretty well, if I say so myself, as it had always fascinated me. Let us open a thread for it?
*Sigh* Very well. But I posted this article on my own website because I did not care to debate what I think about the Witch-king in these matters, but rather to present the case. Were this an unfriendly forum, I should simply say that my essay stands on its own, and swat at objections; but since this is a forum by invitation, and so friendly, I will discuss my essay with you and anyone else who would like to participate. Gordis
Thank you, Alcuin.
I understand your feelings. The WK identity is pure conjecture and opinions can be quite different. Discussing such things on big forums will provoke much nastiness. No, we can discuss matters nicely here, I believe.
Moreover, I don't propose to nitpick on your essay, but only discuss the main ideas you based it on.
When I finish my own essay on nazgul freedom which I promised to Angmar ages ago, I shall also post it here for discussion. Most of it has been posted on Entmoot already and some replies were very helpful. CAB for instance proposed a new scenario, perhaps more credible than mine. Alcuin
*moan* *groan* Whenever you are ready… Witch-king of Angmar
As those who know me from Entmoot are aware, I usually will just go silent before I argue about anything. On Entmoot, I came down with a case of sore tongue from having to bite it all the time, but I stayed silent. Feel free to discuss here. This is a polite and courteous group of people.
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Post by Duilin on Aug 30, 2007 5:59:05 GMT
Is this made clear in the text? Perhaps it is because Amlaith was an arrogant bastard who nobody liked. All we've got from the Professor is "After Eärendur, owing to dissensions among his sons their realm was divided into three: Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan." Or is there more in UT or HOME (or "Of the Rings of Power")? At any rate, the dissensions could just as easily be because Amlaith was horrible as they could be out of any failings of his younger brothers. Although presumably Tolkien felt that Amlaith was the best of the three - he rewards him by having his line be the one that survives and brings forth King Elessar, while those in the other realms quickly die out.
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