What was Carn-Dum like?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

z3.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Kingdom/index.php?showtopic=23


Gordis


Carn-Dum, the only place mentioned in Angmar: "Men of Carn-Dum"...

What was the place like, in your opinion?

Was it a big city, or just a fortress surrounded by villages?

When was it built -before the WK came to Angmar, or after?

What was its population like? Men only? or orcs/trolls as well?

What sort of men lived there (apart from that they were "evil" , which is of course CANON, but explains little) Hillmen? Men of three Houses? Easterlings? Were there some Eastern troups brought by the WK?

What was life like there? Where did they get food so far to the North? What about heating?

Did they see much of the Witch-King? What did they know about him?

Witch-king of Angmar

Gordis, very good survey.

"What was the place like, in your opinion?"

I see Carn Dum much like the picture by Stephen Walsh, which is up at the top of the page.

"Was it a big city, or just a fortress surrounded by villages?"

I see it as a moderately sized city, perhaps even a big city clustered about the base of the fortress, with villages in the surrounding territory.

"When was it built -before the WK came to Angmar, or after?"

I would say that there was possibly a village or town there proceeding him, which grew as he established factories and forges.

"What was its population like? Men only? or orcs/trolls as well?"

I see men in the town and villages and orcs/trolls in the mountains. Who knows, maybe some of them worked in the smelteries.

"What sort of men lived there (apart from that they were "evil" , which is of course CANON, but explains little) Hillmen? Men of three Houses? Easterlings? Were there some Eastern troups brought by the WK?"

I see all of these groups being represented in Carn Dum.

"What was life like there?"

Carn Dum lay in the Mountains of Angmar. The whole range of Angmar and the Gray Mountains, as well as the Iron Hills far to the east, are all left over from the Iron Mountains of the First Age. There would be iron ore, other metals, and perhaps coal. Mount Gundabad has been there since the First Age.

Since the iron would be a real factor in the development of this area, I see the mining and refining of ores, forges and factories as being the primary source of income.

"Where did they get food so far to the North?"

According to Karen Wynn Fonstad's map, this area has stunted trees, shrubs and thickets. The climate is listed as "severe winter, cool summer." This is what she said in regard to her designations: "Humid Climates: Mild winter, warm summer; to severe winter, cool summer = Eastern Europe, Arkansas to Wisconsin." The area of Carn Dum is not listed as having a Polar climate. As for landforms, Fonstad has mountains, some hilly land, and undulating lowlands all about.

For human food, I see farmers growing such cold weather foodstuffs as potatoes, cabbages, turnips, etc. For both man and beast, wheat and other suitable grains would be grown. Hay would be a big crop because of the rainfall. Wisconsin has a lot of dairies. *grins* But that is because they can easily get grains from the midwest.

As for where Carn Dum now rests in the real world, it lies somewhere beneath the North Sea, according to Lailiath's calculations.

"What about heating?"

Wood or coal, even peat or livestock manure. Anything that burns.

"Did they see much of the Witch-King?"

For about 600 years, the people did not know the Witch-king was the chief of the Nazgul. It is only mentioned that he wore a mask at the battle of Fornost, and this could have been a masked helm. (This helm could be an Anglosaxon/Viking "grímhelm," which was a regular helmet with a veil of chainmail covering up the face beneath the eye holes, or it could be a helm with a full metal mask, as the Greeks used)

There are several theories we could go by.

1. He always wore a mask and gloves. The people thought it was strange but grew used to his eccentricities.
2. He was in possession of his Ring and was able to regain visibility.
3. Using his Ring and/or his native powers, he was able to deceive the minds of those about him into thinking he was a visible man. (Something like the power of Saruman's hypnotic voice)
4. No one ever saw him, only his advisors. (Not really logical for a king)

As for his age:

1. The people assumed he was of Numenorean descent and just had an extra-long lifespan.
2. The people assumed that he was a sorcerer, probably of Numenorean descent, and had determined a method of extending his life through sorcery.
3. By some trickery, he assumed the identity of a son who may or may not have existed and "died" every so many years, only to be replaced by another "son." This theory sounds intriguing but would be highly complicated to pull off.

"What did they know about him?"

Tolkien was so vague here. This would depend upon what theory you want to accept.

Valandil

QUOTE (Witch-king of Angmar @ Jun 5 2006, 06:42 PM)
:
:
I see Carn Dum much like the picture by Stephen Walsh, which is up at the top of the page.

But "The Northern Kingdom"... the name of this site. That refers to A R N O R of course,... right?

Witch-king of Angmar

QUOTE (Valandil @ Jun 7 2006, 12:55 AM)
But "The Northern Kingdom"... the name of this site. That refers to A R N O R of course,... right?

No, the Northern Kingdom refers to

ANGMAR

I thought everyone knew.

Valandil

But Angmar was a short-lived aggressor state. Harboring Weapons of Mass Destruction, no doubt.

Arnor survived undivided for 982 years - and Arthedain another 1113 years after that - a total of 2095 years!

Angmar didn't last a third so long - and didn't control a third as much territory either.

Angmar... bah! ARNOR was the TRUE Northern Kingdom!

Gordis

Angmar Rules!

To one and only TRUE Northern Kingdom!!!

And the only true King!

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

QUOTE
Angmar: I see Carn Dum much like the picture by Stephen Walsh, which is up at the top of the page.


Yes, it is the best picture I know of. Except the strange barrel-shape of the tower, that is.


QUOTE
Angmar: I would say that there was possibly a village or town there proceeding him, which grew as he established factories and forges.



There is an important factor introduced by the ICE modules, the pre-existing underground caves abandoned by Gundabad Dwarves. Like most of the ICE additions, it seems well researched, because it answers an important question: Why didn't the Witch-King made his capital at Gundabad? It was no problem (for him) to drive out the orcs from there, and he could get the grand place equal to Moria, which was not so far to the North, and closer to the center of his Kingdom. But still he has chosen Carn-Dum.

Moreover, given the long (1.5 Age long) existence of the Dwarven realm of Gundabad in the vicinity, and the presence of iron in Angmar hills, it made sense to have a smaller dwarven city there as well as extensive mines.

Life in the caves, with constant temperature, is much easier in the cold climate, than life in draughty towers. Is saves a fortune on heating. So, I believe the most part of the Carn-Dum fortress was really underground, within the mountain, while only a tall watch-tower stood outside, surrounded by walls.

Perhaps there even were hot springs there? Also makes sense, if we suppose that Gundabad was first a volcano.


QUOTE
I see men in the town and villages and orcs/trolls in the mountains. Who knows, maybe some of them worked in the smelteries.

Yes, unlike Khazar, I don't see the "mixed" town: hardly men would be glad to live together with orcs and trolls. More likely these last two varieties of creatures had separate cave settlements nearby.


QUOTE
"What sort of men lived there (apart from that they were "evil" , which is of course CANON, but explains little) Hillmen? Men of three Houses? Easterlings? Were there some Eastern troups brought by the WK?"
Angmar: I see all of these groups being represented in Carn Dum.


I think, there should be the ruling caste of Black Numenoreans - refugees from Umbar and Harad, annexed by Gondor some 300 years previously. Most likely, they constituted the original small army that the Witch-King brought to Angmar before 1300. I highly doubt he came there all alone to "work" with the native barbarians. But I don't think there were many of Easterlings or, especially, Haradrim - too cold for them. On the other hand, the presence of such "exotic" warriors would have been noted in Arnor chronicles. The Black Numenoreans, on the other hand, could be easily mixed with "evil" renegade Dunedain.

Also I think there was a constant influx of mercenaries from all of Eriador as well as from the Vales, Rhovanion, Iron Hills, etc.


QUOTE
Angmar: Carn Dum lay in the Mountains of Angmar. The whole range of Angmar and the Gray Mountains, as well as the Iron Hills far to the east, are all left over from the Iron Mountains of the First Age. There would be iron ore, other metals, and perhaps coal. Mount Gundabad has been there since the First Age.
Since the iron would be a real factor in the development of this area, I see the mining and refining of ores, forges and factories as being the primary source of income.



I think so also.


QUOTE
"Where did they get food so far to the North?"
Angmar: According to Karen Wynn Fonstad's map, this area has stunted trees, shrubs and thickets. The climate is listed as "severe winter, cool summer." This is what she said in regard to her designations: "Humid Climates: Mild winter, warm summer; to severe winter, cool summer = Eastern Europe, Arkansas to Wisconsin." The area of Carn Dum is not listed as having a Polar climate. As for landforms, Fonstad has mountains, some hilly land, and undulating lowlands all about.


I believe Angmar had a climate far from polar, as it was well sheltered from the North and the East by high mountains. Actually, the Northern part of Angmar, where Carn-Doom stood, might have had a warmer climate than the southern part, just because of the nearness of protecting mountains. As for "severe winter -cool summer" thing, I think it might be incorrect. The Sea is far, and it is not a factor in Angmar, whether it had a warm current or not. So, the climate must be continental, and it gives "severe winter-warm summer". Also it gives warm days and cold nights. I believe, the snow might settle in November and stay till March. First leaves at the end of April. In September all leaves turn yellow and red, in October they are gone.... The trees - mostly normal birches and fur-trees grow in valleys, stunted trees (mostly pines) on exposed hilltops, along with shrubs. Lots of berries - bilberry, red bilberry, cranberry which would be used with about every dish, as is the case in Northern Europe.


QUOTE
Angmar: For human food, I see farmers growing such cold weather foodstuffs as potatoes, cabbages, turnips, etc. For both man and beast, wheat and other suitable grains would be grown. Hay would be a big crop because of the rainfall. Wisconsin has a lot of dairies. *grins* But that is because they can easily get grains from the midwest.


Potato was Tolkien's mistake, but let us leave it. Also there must be lots of wild animals for hunting: deer, maybe even boars, very likely elks, also bears, ducks and geese. The area between Greylin and Langwell on the other side of the Mountains, which also belonged to Angmar, was said to have lots of game and wild horses, including ancestors of Mearas.
So I don't really see where the stupid idea of food being constantly imported from either Mirkwood or the East (that was accepted unchallenged on M. Martinez's forum) came from!


QUOTE
Angmar: As for where Carn Dum now rests in the real world, it lies somewhere beneath the North Sea, according to Lailiath's calculations.

Which also suggests a far from polar climate!


QUOTE
For about 600 years, the people did not know the Witch-king was the chief of the Nazgul. It is only mentioned that he wore a mask at the battle of Fornost, and this could have been a masked helm. (This helm could be an Anglosaxon/Viking "grímhelm," which was a regular helmet with a veil of chainmail covering up the face beneath the eye holes, or it could be a helm with a full metal mask, as the Greeks used)


Or a Dwarven mask, like Turin wore. I think, he wears one in Stephen Walsh's picture.

QUOTE

There are several theories we could go by.
1. He always wore a mask and gloves. The people thought it was strange but grew used to his eccentricities.
2. He was in possession of his Ring and was able to regain visibility.
3. Using his Ring and/or his native powers, he was able to deceive the minds of those about him into thinking he was a visible man. (Something like the power of Saruman's hypnotic voice)
4. No one ever saw him, only his advisors. (Not really logical for a king)



In case one, he could make all the population of Angmar cover their faces, at least all the nobles, declaring it a custom . But I don't think I like (1). Whatever you put on your face, if you have no visible eyes, or have eyes that are seen like pale or red lights, a face mask would hardly help to remain inconspicuous, will it?

I think no.4 is unrealistic, especially in the beginning, when the Kingdom was being built. And at war also.

As for 2 and 3, I think I prefer 3 - but the result is almost the same. Only in case 3, he should be wary of those who look at him, while he is not aware of them. Also must be difficult in a battle, when he can't concentrate his attention on projecting images in other's minds.


QUOTE
As for his age:
1. The people assumed he was of Numenorean descent and just had an extra-long lifespan.
2. The people assumed that he was a sorcerer, probably of Numenorean descent, and had determined a method of extending his life through sorcery.
3. By some trickery, he assumed the identity of a son who may or may not have existed and "died" every so many years, only to be replaced by another "son." This theory sounds intriguing but would be highly complicated to pull off.


At first 1, of course. In our RPG, set in 1346, he had only ruled Angmar for 50-70 years, too early for his long life to seem unnatural. I think, seeing him surrounded by Black Numenoreans, they assumed he was one himself.

And then, later- 2, I think, there he got his title "Witch-King"

3 is far too complicated. A "son" had to be around for a long time, had to "grow", had to be seen together with his "father". Also he had to be alike, but not really identical. Even another nazgul playing the "son" would be difficult. And then, the others had their own kingdoms to mind, I believe. Hardly one would be hanging around Carn-Dum constantly.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Witch-king of Angmar

"Yes, it is the best picture I know of. Except the strange barrel-shape of the tower, that is."

Gordis, I know. It looks like a misshapen pagoda that bulges in the middle. The shape of the tower came about when the Witch-king made a trip to the Far East, to the Eastern Sea, and was so impressed by the pagodas that he wanted to replace the boring architecture of the North with a new style. Unfortunately, something went wrong in its construction.

When the massive gong in the top of the tower was struck, it could be heard for miles away.

The domes and minarets were so common that it was felt that a change of architecture had been long overdue. A comparison of the two styles can be found below.

The link to the famous Barrel Pagoda, the only one of its kind up to that time, can be found here:
www.tlotr.com/fan_art/carndum_stephenwalsh.jpg

Below will show the common dome and minaret style of architecture so common in Middle-earth at the time. This type of architecture was common in Valinor, then with the Elves, then the Númenóreans, and finally the Gondorians and Arnorians. (Much of this style has been retained in the Mid-east today).
I always called this one "Earendil has a vision of the future Istanbul." Note the amazing resemblance to Topkapi Seraglio as viewed from the Bosphorus.
chronarda.ru/gallery/gal_big/nasmith/valinor.jpg

"There is an important factor introduced by the ICE modules, the pre-existing underground caves abandoned by Gundabad Dwarves. Like most of the ICE additions, it seems well researched, because it answers an important question: Why didn't the Witch-King made his capital at Gundabad? It was no problem (for him) to drive out the orcs from there, and he could get the grand place equal to Moria, which was not so far to the North, and closer to the center of his Kingdom. But still he has chosen Carn-Dum.
Moreover, given the long (1.5 Age long) existence of the Dwarven realm of Gundabad in the vicinity, and the presence of iron in Angmar hills, it made sense to have a smaller dwarven city there as well as extensive mines.
Life in the caves, with constant temperature, is much easier in the cold climate, than life in draughty towers. Is saves a fortune on heating. So, I believe the most part of the Carn-Dum fortress was really underground, within the mountain, while only a tall watch-tower stood outside, surrounded by walls.
Perhaps there even were hot springs there? Also makes sense, if we suppose that Gundabad was first a volcano."

It surely makes a lot more sense.

"I think, there should be the ruling caste of Black Númenóreans - refugees from Umbar and Harad, annexed by Gondor some 300 years previously. Most likely, they constituted the original small army that the Witch-King brought to Angmar before 1300. I highly doubt he came there all alone to "work" with the native barbarians. But I don't think there were many of Easterlings or, especially, Haradrim - too cold for them. On the other hand, the presence of such "exotic" warriors would have been noted in Arnor chronicles. The Black Númenóreans, on the other hand, could be easily mixed with "evil" renegade Dunedain.
Also I think there was a constant influx of mercenaries from all of Eriador as well as from the Vales, Rhovanion, Iron Hills, etc."

Gordis, you are overlooking the Barrel Pagoda here in regard to the Easterlings. Part of the reason for building the top of the tower in the style of a pagoda was to make the Eastern samurai mercenaries feel more at home. The Witch-king has an alliance with the peoples of the Far, Far East. We are keeping quiet about the ninjas.

Joking aside, I see it as you do. I don't think anyone could really "work" with the indigenous population.

"I believe Angmar had a climate far from polar, as it was well sheltered from the North and the East by high mountains. Actually, the Northern part of Angmar, where Carn-Doom stood, might have had a warmer climate than the southern part, just because of the nearness of protecting mountains. As for "severe winter -cool summer" thing, I think it might be incorrect. The Sea is far, and it is not a factor in Angmar, whether it had a warm current or not. So, the climate must be continental, and it gives "severe winter-warm summer". Also it gives warm days and cold nights. I believe, the snow might settle in November and stay till March. First leaves at the end of April. In September all leaves turn yellow and red, in October they are gone.... The trees - mostly normal birches and fur-trees grow in valleys, stunted trees (mostly pines) on exposed hilltops, along with shrubs. Lots of berries - bilberry, red bilberry, cranberry which would be used with about every dish, as is the case in Northern Europe."

This sounds almost exactly like the climate in the New England states, one with which I am quite familiar, complete with cranberry bogs. So cranberries grow in Europe; I never knew that until now. Good thing to know. What about blueberries? Are they native to Northern Europe, too?

"Potato was Tolkien's mistake, but let us leave it. Also there must be lots of wild animals for hunting: deer, maybe even boars, very likely elks, also bears, ducks and geese. The area between Greylin and Langwell on the other side of the Mountains, which also belonged to Angmar, was said to have lots of game and wild horses, including ancestors of Mearas.
So I don't really see where the stupid idea of food being constantly imported from either Mirkwood or the East (that was accepted unchallenged on M. Martinez's forum) came from!"

It is absurd to think about the necessity for food to be imported to a place with a continental climate.

"In case one, he could make all the population of Angmar cover their faces, at least all the nobles, declaring it a custom . But I don't think I like (1). Whatever you put on your face, if you have no visible eyes, or have eyes that are seen like pale or red lights, a face mask would hardly help to remain inconspicuous, will it?"

People would definitely think that was strange.

"I think no.4 is unrealistic, especially in the beginning, when the Kingdom was being built. And at war also.
As for 2 and 3, I think I prefer 3 - but the result is almost the same. Only in case 3, he should be wary of those who look at him, while he is not aware of them. Also must be difficult in a battle, when he can't concentrate his attention on projecting images in other's minds."

With any of these choices except maybe number 3, we are left with the "suspension of reality" suppositions, or in other words, one of Tolkien's impossibilities which are so irritating. So here is what we are left with - for 600 years, the king of a country is totally invisible, but no one seems to notice. What are we left with? A king who never goes out in public and no one really cares? Were the people there just so apathetic? Were they all on drugs? Did anyone ever say "Just who is ruling this country?"

"The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeking hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong." - The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain, Appendix A, Return of the King, p. 320

"They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. ... And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion, p.289

As we know from LOTR, the statement in bold is not entirely true. Gandalf and Gorfindel can see the Nazgûl. Tom Bombadil could probably see the Nazgûl, as well as any maia or other spirit could.

"At first 1, of course. In our RPG, set in 1346, he had only ruled Angmar for 50-70 years, too early for his long life to seem unnatural. I think, seeing him surrounded by Black Númenóreans, they assumed he was one himself.
And then, later- 2, I think, there he got his title "Witch-King"
3 is far too complicated. A "son" had to be around for a long time, had to "grow", had to be seen together with his "father". Also he had to be alike, but not really identical. Even another nazgul playing the "son" would be difficult. And then, the others had their own kingdoms to mind, I believe. Hardly one would be hanging around Carn-Dum constantly.

Of course the "son" theory is far too complicated. Now we are right back to "Who IS ruling this country?" What were the Dunedain doing? Did they have any kind of spy system to figure this all out?

The North, the Land of Apathy.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

LOL, what a great post, Angmar!

Ninja are a DEFINITE possibility (don't they also cover their faces? ) and the Samurai guards of the WK were renown throughout the ME for their ferocity .

Re: northern berries.
I am not too sure about the English names, so I found pictures.

Here are the most common berries in the Northern Europe.

Bilberry=blueberry - Vaccinum myrtillus in Latin www.opal.utu.fi/museo/bige/kuvat/isot/MUSTIKKA_b.jpg
Lots of it in July-August Could be preserved only as a jam.

Red bilberry - Vaccinum vitis-idea
www.photoweb.ru/anphoto/Images/33colp.jpg
This is one is collected in August-September in great quantities. Could be preserved for a year, by simply putting in water.

Occycoccus palustris - is it your cranberry?
www.hlasek.com/foto/oxycoccus_palustris_a4549.jpg
Collected in late September-October, and even in spring, after snow melts. Also preserved in water - absolutely intact for a year or more.

Also for a short period in July there is this one - probably the most tasty. Rubus chamaemorus
linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/di/rosa/rubus/rubucha3.jpg

Witch-king of Angmar

“Ninja are a DEFINITE possibility (don't they also cover their faces? ) and the Samurai guards of the WK were renown throughout the ME for their ferocity”

More about this below.

“Bilberry=blueberry - Vaccinum myrtillus in Latin www.opal.utu.fi/museo/bige/kuvat/isot/MUSTIKKA_b.jpg
Lots of it in July-August Could be preserved only as a jam.”

This looks very much like an American blueberry.

“Red bilberry - Vaccinum vitis-idea
www.photoweb.ru/anphoto/Images/33colp.jpg
This is one is collected in August-September in great quantities. Could be preserved for a year, by simply putting in water”

This looks more like a ground cherry.

“Occycoccus palustris - is it your cranberry?
www.hlasek.com/foto/oxycoccus_palustris_a4549.jpg
Collected in late September-October, and even in spring, after snow melts. Also preserved in water - absolutely intact for a year or more.”

This definitely looks like an American cranberry. They grow very low to the ground and are harvested with rakes. They are very acidic but with sugar or some other sweetener can be very good.

“Also for a short period in July there is this one - probably the most tasty. Rubus chamaemorus
linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/di/rosa/rubus/rubucha3.jpg”

Although this is shaped somewhat like a raspberry or blackberry, I am totally unfamiliar with it.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

THE ANGMARIAN MASK

No one in Carn Dum thinks it is unusual that the king is always masked simply because the people themselves are always masked. It is the style there, and it is very utilitarian in the winter when it gets very cold.

Because of the Witch-king’s connections to the Far East (as witness the Barrel Pagoda tower), the complete masked look has become widespread and has been adopted by the populace in general.

Here is a crowd scene, showing the Witch-king giving a speech at a rally of his ninja corps.
www.jabootu.com/images/mka16.jpg

Here is a picture of the renowned Angmarian cavalry.
www.jabootu.com/images/mka15.jpg

Below is a young warrior of the city, who has quite a reputation for his prowess in battle. (Elfhild tells me that he is very popular among the ladies.) Obviously, he doesn’t have to worry about being invisible; he has simply adopted the widespread style. He would be considered unusual to say the least if he DIDN’T wear a mask.
ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/636/636142/more-hints-at-ps3-ninja-gaiden-20050725001109440.jpg

As you can see below, the very practical has spread to Harad.
www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/7495/touareg.gif

An Angmarian foot soldier near the red rocks of Carn Dum:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Targui.jpg

A group of Angmarian women on the streets of Carn Dum
watch.windsofchange.net/pics/r1864871125.jpg

This woman has adopted the total face mask:
www.tribalelegance.net/black%20and%20white%20paktoon%20burqa.gif

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Hilarious, Angmar ;D

But all the pics prove one thing: almost all types of hoods leave the part of the face around the eyes visible. So one can find the nazgul easily - even if his eyes don't shine like red lights.

So we should return to image projecting / ring visibility options, it seems.

Otherwise nobody would be able to tell who rules this country.

Witch-king of Angmar

QUOTE (Gordis @ Jun 8 2006, 09:20 PM)
But all the pics prove one thing: almost all types of hoods leave the part of the face around the eyes visible. So one can find the nazgul easily - even if his eyes don't shine like red lights.

So we should return to image projecting / ring visibility options, it seems.

Otherwise nobody would be able to tell who rules this country.


Gordis, there are Halloween masks for such characters as Nazgûl and the Grim Reaper that cover the whole face. These masks are thin sheets of a screen-like material that conceal the face from outsiders but allow the wearer to see everything around him. The vision of the wearer is dimmed somewhat, as though he were wearing sunglasses. If a person is close enough to the masked man, they can see his facial features where the material hits them, but not his actual appearance.

The ninja leader in the first two photos appears to be wearing such a masked hood over his face. The women wearing the burqas in several of the pictures seem to have a variation of this, too.

It is possible to cover the eyes but it will lessen visibility greatly.

Valandil

You know, Karen Wynn Fonstad put a lot of work into her Atlas - but there is one thing in particular I wonder is she got wrong - or at least, if a good altenate argument could be made.

She has so much barren space - with just shrubs, etc - in the north of Eriador. But in our own northern hemisphere, there are broad bands of coniferous trees on all continents - in Alaska and Canada, in Scandinavia and Finland, in Siberia.

So - I think it's entirely conceivable that much of the north had heavy pine forests - at least below the Arctic Circle (and the Bay of Forochel - if that was further south than the Arctic Circle - was perhaps affected by polar winds and currents).

What do the rest of you think?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Witch-king of Angmar

You know, Karen Wynn Fonstad put a lot of work into her Atlas - but there is one thing in particular I wonder is she got wrong - or at least, if a good altenate argument could be made.
She has so much barren space - with just shrubs, etc - in the north of Eriador. But in our own northern hemisphere, there are broad bands of coniferous trees on all continents - in Alaska and Canada, in Scandinavia and Finland, in Siberia."

Val, yes, Fonstad blanketed large spaces of territory with barren space or shrubs or "scattered woodlands." Maybe she was concerned about being challenged because Tolkien never stated what grew where. Of course there would be trees in the north, vast forests, I would say.

"So - I think it's entirely conceivable that much of the north had heavy pine forests - at least below the Arctic Circle (and the Bay of Forochel - if that was further south than the Arctic Circle - was perhaps affected by polar winds and currents).
What do the rest of you think?"

I think she did a great job with her atlas. There were mistakes, yes. There always are mistakes with anything. The sad thing is that she passed away about a year or so ago. Besides this great loss to her family of her death, the Tolkien community has lost greatly in being denied her work and intellect. I just hope the book doesn't go out of print and I do not foresee that there will be another Middle-earth cartographer of her quality on the scene anytime soon. She is missed.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

QUOTE (Witch-king of Angmar @ Jun 8 2006, 11:38 PM)
:
:
I think she did a great job with her atlas. There were mistakes, yes. There always are mistakes with anything. The sad thing is that she passed away about a year or so ago. Besides this great loss to her family of her death, the Tolkien community has lost greatly in being denied her work and intellect. I just hope the book doesn't go out of print and I do not foresee that there will be another Middle-earth cartographer of her quality on the scene anytime soon. She is missed.


Yes - that is a shame. And I didn't mean to sound critical of her, if that was how it came off. I understood she was working on a second edition of her Atlas at the time(?).

Gordis

Yes, she was great!

But I agree about a belt of coniferous forests - it should be there.

The bay of Forochel is an inner sea, so it freezes, no doubt.

I am pretty familiar with the European regions around and beyond the Polar Circle. The sea at this latitude becomes free from ice in MAY, not March, unlike the bay of Forochel.
In the begginning of May, skiing is good on the sea ice - the taw just begins.

So, I would say, Forochel should be south of Polar Circle.

Guys, any idea where the Polar circle in ME is? North of Forochel and Angmar?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Witch-king of Angmar

"Yes - that is a shame. And I didn't mean to sound critical of her, if that was how it came off. I understood she was working on a second edition of her Atlas at the time(?)."

Val, the atlas currently in print is the revised edition from 1991. I think the first atlas came out sometime in the early 80's. I do not know if she was working on a third edition at the time of her death or not. It would make sense that she was, because not all of the HOME books were printed when she was working on the 1991 atlas. There is the whole matter of Mordor and the Sea of Rhûn omitted from the First Age map because Chris Tolkien hadn't come out with Peoples of Middle-earth at that time.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

If you are only looking at southwestern Angmar, between Carn Dûm and the main line of the Misty Mountains south of Mount Gundabad and north and west of Mount Gram, you might be looking at a grassy region that might have reasonable rainfall so that the inhabitants could grow cold-weather grains such as rye, oats, or barley, all of which are successfully grown in Scotland and the sub-arctic regions of European Russia. Grazing animals should also be important (and might provide the basis of a cavalry if the locals kept horses, as like as not they did). Grazing lands for herds could provide a regular excuse for raids into northern Eriador against Arnor and later Arthedain. I assume that Angmar claimed lands north of the Grey Mountains; whether they could enforce such a claim is of no matter; but the people there might be herding some cold-weather ungulate like the caribou, as do the Lapps and northern Finns. (The Inuit hunted caribou but did not herd them until the 20th century.) The Lossoth probably hunted such game, too, as well as seals, northern otters, and possibly whales if they could construct boats of sufficient size.

Have you considered that Angmar might have controlled or at least influenced the very far north of the Vales of Anduin? In Return of the King, “Appendix A”, “II The House of Eorl”, Tolkien writes that

QUOTE
when ... [the Men of the Éothéod] heard of the overthrow of the Witch-king, they sought more room in the North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side of the Mountains.

The Witch-king should be able to use this to his advantage, just as Rivendell and Lórien used their cross-mountain relationship to their advantage: in III 1409, Elrond’s forces were strengthened in the war against Angmar by a force out of Lórien.