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Post by Valandil on Jun 3, 2009 12:59:07 GMT
PPS: PLEASE nobody get discouraged by my persnicketyness.
I'm off to work now. I'll peek in this evening, but my mom is coming for a short stay tonight, and I have to make two trips to the airport with her tomorrow.
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Post by Gordis on Jun 3, 2009 13:04:32 GMT
I would leave the honor to reply to most of your points to Duilin.  I think that we can easily abandon the idea of Beleg's nocturnal expedition. There is really no need for him to risk his life and reputation to look at the portrait that he can simply ask to see. So, we can agree with Val's points No. 1, 2, 3 - no secret passage, no Beleg's foolishness. As for the rest, I really don't see another way to sneak into the Palantir chamber but via the roof. Indeed that way is truly perilous, and criminal as well. I don't know - Duilin, do you still want to try? About no 5. - What makes the Cardolani's think that Romendacil would be willing to listen to them, or even to give them an audience? The idea is that Gimilbeth, during her legal interview with Romendacil will ask the King if he would grant a secret audience to Galphant at the appointed time the following night. He could refuse, but if he accepts, then he would become sort of an accomplice himself and wouldn't be likely to spill it to Annundil or Malvegil. That's how I see it. Another matter entirely is that if Romendacil grants Galphant a private audience at night, I don't really see the need to keep it secret from Annundil. I don't think he would prevent such a communication, if the King of Gondor asks for it. Annundil could be asked NOT to tell the rest of the Cardolani guys - why wouldn't he keep it secret, if asked to? Then there is no need to climb any towers... |
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Post by Duilin on Jun 3, 2009 14:46:30 GMT
Okay - some good points here, Val. Let me go through them. Like Gordis, I'll just concede on points 1-3. 4. As to using the roof - it's very steep, and it's up VERY high. The risk of a fall would be great. The risk of being spotted would be almost certain. Maybe less if attempted after dark - which increases the risk of a fall commesurately. Now - it's easy to dismiss such risks when we sit at our computers, controlling our characters, but imagine being in that position - with the option to go outside and climb up to and onto a steep, high roof on some dark winter night (for all to see - hoping not to be spotted) in hopes of finding a way to break into a place like this. Remember - it gets awful windy here too. This is certainly a serious objection. I think Duilin and Thurisind are skilled enough that it wouldn't be a particularly big deal for them, but Galphant is another matter - it's doubtful he'd want to be killed, or to take a large risk of being killed, when he could just send someone down to Osgiliath on a horse and get an answer, if a bit more slowly. My thought was that Thurisind and Duilin would basically lower him down with a rope, or something along those lines, but I can see that the whole business might be problematic. As Gordis notes, Gimilbeth will be getting Romendacil to agree to a meeting in advance. So once he's agree to a clandestine meeting, he's implicated and would want to keep it secret. As far as why Romendacil might be interested, Gondor is still at the height of its power at this point, but its political influence in the north seems weak. Installing a friendly client in Cardolan and providing military aid to Rhudaur would help to establish Gondor's paramount influence in Arnor, and in the process stick it to the elder line (and particularly to Malvegil, whom nobody seems to like much). Basically, Galphant is operating under the premise that Gondor would rather see an independent Cardolan than a reuniting northern kingdom. Hmm...Galphant is a diplomatic visitor to Amon Sûl, a member of the council of a neighboring kingdom, and a nobleman from a great family. To execute him while on a diplomatic mission would be problematic. Even if he is treated as a spy, the general diplomatic procedure for spies with diplomatic status is expulsion from the country, not any kind of bodily harm or imprisonment. Vigilance generally results from having some real reason to fear that someone might try something. I don't think it makes the Arthedainians buffoons to say that such an attempt is simply something that they wouldn't expect, and that they thus would not be particularly well-prepared for it. But why should they be on their guard that people who came to Amon Sûl explicitly to legitimately use the Palantír, as both Gimilbeth and the Cardolani delegation did, would be interested in illicit use of it? These are people who are allowed to use the Palantír. Why should security fear that any of them are trying to use it illegally? They don't have any idea of the factionalism within Cardolan (although Celebrindol certainly does, he's not in charge of the Palantír, and even knowing that such factions exist would not lead him to be overtly suspicious of anything, I don't think. No, I'm glad you did - much happier to work this out than to be forever in limbo. Now, Gordis's idea here seems workable to me - In particular, it has the advantage of being a lot easier to arrange, and involving fewer implausibilities. I see two potential problems with this, though. The first is practical, but could probably be worked out. It's that the Galphant/Romendacil conversation is on a subject that would be detrimental to the interests of Annundil's master. Wouldn't Annundil be suspicious that one of the Cardolani delegation is going to have a private audience with Romendacil without the knowledge of the other members of the council? Annundil's son-in-law, at least, is perfectly familiar with the fact that Galphant is an enemy of Arthedain's interests in Cardolan. But I'm sure we could work this out. I suppose some innocent ostensible motive could be arranged - a marriage alliance, or some such. The second potential issue I have with this is that it basically leaves nothing for Duilin and Thurisind to do. If there's to be no active adventuring involved in getting Galphant his meeting with Romendacil, then there's nothing for my adventurers to do - they basically just spend the rest of the time in Amon Sûl sitting around with nothing to do. I'm not committed to any particular venture for them, but I'd like for them to do something. |
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Post by Voronwen on Jun 3, 2009 14:48:21 GMT
Oh, I had meant that Sulawen could get into trouble if her husband found out she had informed Beleg behind his back. Got it! Ah, yes, perhaps her more reserved demeanor enters in.  I can make Tamyris a friend of Sirien's, sure - eventually, though. Right now i'm concentrating on Vorondariel, at least until it becomes apparent that it's time for Tamyris' first post (which may even be soon, we'll see). My intention for Tamyris is to make her kind of sneaky and despicable  Vorondariel is easy to write, because she is more like me, but Tamyris is going to be very different on purpose - it'll be a good exercise for me. As for everything else going on in this thread, i'm just observing, and leaving all these larger plot points to the advanced players... and reading it all with great interest. |
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Post by Duilin on Jun 3, 2009 16:01:03 GMT
BTW, one possibility is that Galphant, Duilin, Thurisind, et al, plan a complicated maneuver to get into the tower and then it proves completely unnecessary because Romendacil just asks Annundil to allow the interview and it goes forward.
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Post by Gordis on Jun 3, 2009 18:49:56 GMT
The second potential issue I have with this is that it basically leaves nothing for Duilin and Thurisind to do. If there's to be no active adventuring involved in getting Galphant his meeting with Romendacil, then there's nothing for my adventurers to do - they basically just spend the rest of the time in Amon Sûl sitting around with nothing to do. I'm not committed to any particular venture for them, but I'd like for them to do something. Yes, I agree completely. There was such a build-up for this sneaking-into-the-tower thing, that now it would be anticlimactic not to have Duilin and Thurisind even ATTEMPT some mischief.  Let them at least try but fail... It will prove that Amon Sul guys guard the Tower well, and it still makes an interesting story. Let them try: first let Duilin follow Gandalf and K to the roof, have a good look, devise a plan how to break into the chamber. Then, using Gimilbeth, arrange the talk with the Gondor King, then at night sneak onto the stairs, get onto the roof, lower Duilin down with a rope and let him find out either that the Palantir is watched by one of the wardens or that there is no way to open the window from outside without breaking the glass and damaging the window casement. Then the next day the irritated (and intrigued) Romendacil who had spent a sleepless night by the Stone would simply ask Annundil to please call Galphant to the stone on some pretext (a Gondorian princess for Herunarth to marry? or better some unfinished business with the Prince Rammastir like buying stone from the White mountains for his Great Wall? - then he will ask for Rammastir, and in his absence, his son. The King of Gondor has the right to speak with whomever he chooses. Annundil would surely grant Romendacil his whish, even if later he would report to Malvegil. As I said, I think they should at least try somehing daring. It is much more fun this way. Castamir business: I don't think we should introduce Castamir into the game. Let Romendacil promise Gimilbeth to send some troops to Rhudaur next summer (troops take awfully long to prepare, ask Arvedui ;D). Then the army will be delayed.. then it will be too late.  |
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Post by Valandil on Jun 4, 2009 9:58:50 GMT
Whew - OK, sorry if I didn't give you guys enough credit. Really, my biggest reason for a long time was the one where I was questioning my ability to stay involved, and wondering if I had the right to only stay involved enough to make objections. ;D It sounds like we can come to an agreement pretty easily. I had forgotten the exact circumstances of who would be viewing, and under what conditions or terms, etc. It's been awhile. I'll post more later - gotta take my sister's pets to the airport - for a long flight. But maybe that goes in the 'Adventures of Members' thread. |
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Post by Eärniel on Jun 4, 2009 11:00:39 GMT
1. Why, in the first place, would Elendil make a secret access, and the present guardians leave it unguarded? Just so guests could find a way to sneak into the place unobserved and use the Palantir without anyone knowing it? The original idea, which was a throwaway idea of mine, was that there may have been a secret passway in case the Palantir needed moving in an emergency. I can imagine people not wanting to see the Palantir fall into the wrong hands if it came to it. The secrecy, if only the Royal family/Warden family knew of it, would be perhaps a more efficient protection than guards. I reckon it would be logical for Celebrindol and Malvegil to wait until something more definite had been decided. Right now all they have is a proposal. Besides, Beleg is, if I'm not mistaken, also left in the dark about him staying in Amon sul for an extended period, while his whole family do know. It would then not seem so impossible, that they'd keep the marriage proposal for a while from him too. The idea of sneaking in for a peek at the portrait was, as far as I was concerned, suggested to offer Duilin's characters a way into the tower since they needed to get in for that secret rendez-vous they had planned. It would have offered an opportunity to get to the palantir without impossible climbing schemes, against which the tower would have been constructed in the first place. Which is IMO exactly why we thought of the follow-Beleg-scheme.  The tower is impregnable considering the resources the Cardolani ambassy has at the moment. Unless there's a slip in the defenses, the whole idea is pretty much undoable. So you have, but we won't hold that against you. The thing is, no one's characters have to do something their owner doesn't want them to do. We did all enter this game with the idea that we could control our own characters, even though we know the fall of Rhudaur is inevitable. It's not because you are just one, or that you haven't posted much lately, that you should let your characters be involved in something you don't want to go that way. We're all grown up people, if there are matters like these, we'll have to discuss them and see if we can find some other way then, that will lead to a solution. PS: Again - I would be hesitant to bring Castamir into the mix. I don't see why he would bother to come. And - we've done so much in tangential directions, I fear that this would just take us down another side path, and detract from the original focus of the RPG. Are we still concidering that angle? I had thought we had decided to let it lie because things are already complicated enough. Or was that just wishful thinking on my part? *embarrassed look* |
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Post by Duilin on Jun 4, 2009 12:13:15 GMT
I seem to be the only one with any enthusiasm for bringing Gondorians into the mix, so we can drop it if everyone else prefers. There was no intention in my idea on that front to accomplish very much. Basic thought was that Castamir could arrive at Tharbad by sea sometime in the summer, start ordering everyone around, make a fool of himself trying to play politics in Cardolan and in the process uniting all of the factions in Cardolan against him, and then leave without ever getting anywhere close to Rhudaur. Kind of a tragicomic interlude that would probably mostly involve my characters.
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Post by Gordis on Jun 4, 2009 14:02:00 GMT
I think there is no need for a definite decision re: Castamir now. He is not coming straight away, that is for sure. God knows when in RL time we will reach the summer of 1348... Maybe in 5 years...  We can return to the question then. So, did we reach an agreement on the Duilin's nocturnal escapade in the Tower? |
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Vorondariel is easy to write, because she is more like me, but Tamyris is going to be very different on purpose - it'll be a good exercise for me. 
The tower is impregnable considering the resources the Cardolani ambassy has at the moment. Unless there's a slip in the defenses, the whole idea is pretty much undoable. 
We can return to the question then.