|
|
Post by Voronwen on Jun 13, 2009 3:59:14 GMT
This came up on another thread, and i thought it might deserve its own discussion. Heaven knows it has always confused me!  ~ Voronwen (who is so not a math person!   ) |
|
|
|
Post by Valandil on Jun 13, 2009 11:38:59 GMT
Voronwen - what is it about character age that you would like to discuss, or do not understand, etc?
I imagine it might have to do with Dunedain ages - and equivalents to ages of us regular 21st century people. Is it something like that?
|
|
|
|
Post by Voronwen on Jun 13, 2009 17:07:02 GMT
I imagine it might have to do with Dunedain ages - and equivalents to ages of us regular 21st century people. Is it something like that? YES!  How do we get the proper game-age for a character if we intend for them to be 'like' a certain age in real life? Is it approximately double? Or just half again? I've tried to observe the way it's being done here, but something about it is still eluding me (no, i do not have blonde roots, i promise! ). Is it simply assumed, based on the lifespan? I just keep wondering how you're all getting the ages. In addition, do we assume that the lifespan by this time period has already diminished some, as compared with the original Numenoreans, or is it mostly the same? I just want to make sure that whatever age i call my characters, that it's clear within the context of the story as to what age they are supposed to be. I don't want to end up with wild discrepancies vs. the other characters.  For instance, i intend for Tamyris to be 'like' a 19/20 year old girl, at the time of the story. And in her 'early teens' at the time of the vineyard fire. I'm sure i'll have to go in and change her ages mentioned in the latter post, or remove them, once i figure this out, which is ok. For Vorondariel, i'm not yet sure, but i'm thinking she's a little bit older - 'like' a young woman in her mid/late 20s. But for now she's a bit more ambiguous. She may only be slightly older than Tamyris, or the same age. I have yet to decide, until her plot becomes apparent. Also i'm sure other new people will eventually get something out of this too, which is why i started a thread.  |
|
|
|
Post by Duilin on Jun 13, 2009 17:48:29 GMT
My sense of it is that the Dúnedain physically mature at the same rate as anybody else, so that they're physically adults by around 20, and that aging only slows thereafter. Tarnendur's children by his second marriage are all teenagers, and about the same as our teenagers. I can't recall the exact rates we've discussed earlier. Looking at the character information thread, Beleg is 38, and still seems very young - definitely doesn't act older than mid-20s. Aegnor is 45, probably also somewhere under 30 in our terms, Amdír is 75, and I'd think of him as being in his low to mid 30s. Galphant and Gimilbeth are a little over 100, which I've taken as translating to a bit over 40. Tarnendur is almost 160, but probably would be something like 60 or 65 in our terms. But most of them are descended from Elros, and so have longer lifespans - Tamyris would age more swiftly. I don't think making her actually 19 or 20 would be a problem. Vorondariel would probably be descended from Elros, and so have a long lifespan. Maybe 40 or 45 for her?
But I think it's largely an estimation thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Voronwen on Jun 13, 2009 19:52:18 GMT
Thank you, Duilin, this is VERY helpful!! My sense of it is that the Dúnedain physically mature at the same rate as anybody else, so that they're physically adults by around 20, and that aging only slows thereafter. This makes sense... I had noticed his age, and thought, how does this correspond to Tamyris? She'd be younger than he, but not by too much, unless you count the difference between their rates of ageing. (And what you've said about the other characters' ages is also very helpful, and not far off from what i had thought). Well, she is of Numenorean race, just not high nobility/royalty. So definitely not descended from Elros, no. My feeling is that her ancestors were on one of Anarion's ships, and became vineyard-owners in southern Gondor. So, she is from an old Numenorean country family, but not royalty. As such, i think she would have a longer than 'normal' lifespan, but not as long as the higher nobility/royalty (and so perhaps slightly less long-lived than Aegnor... hmm, that could also add something to the story). Would it still be appropriate to make her literally 19 or 20 years old at the time of the Yule in 1348? Or should i make her more like 25 or 30? Going by all of this, 40 sounds about right for Vorondariel. I'm getting that impression  And, i think i'm starting to get it. Thank you so much!  |
|
|
|
Post by Duilin on Jun 13, 2009 20:15:38 GMT
Aegnor's not high nobility either - he'd probably be from the gentry - his family owns land and makes money from rent, but he isn't from one of the great families of the land.
Of course, it seems likely that out 5000 years from Elros, just about everybody with any Dúnadan blood is descended from him. If we assume Amandil was the same number of generations distant from Elros as Ar-Pharazon, then Malvegil is, I think, 41 generations removed from Elros. Queen Elizabeth II is only 39 generations removed from Charlemagne, and pretty much everybody in Europe today is descended from Charlemagne, as I understand it. So it seems rather likely that virtually the entire Dúnadan population of both Arnor and Gondor (as well as the whole of the Black Númenorean population in the south and in Angmar) is descended from Elros.
|
|
|
|
Post by Voronwen on Jun 13, 2009 20:22:29 GMT
Aegnor's not high nobility either - he'd probably be from the gentry - his family owns land and makes money from rent, but he isn't from one of the great families of the land. Ah... then this makes them a bit closer 'class'-wise than i had thought. Still, there is the element that she has lost it all, so there will still be things to work out there (perhaps with a bit of help from Nimraen - does anyone actually play Nimraen? Gordis?). I also have an idea to bring in a long-lost brother (IF i can get a solid commitment from Varokhar), but she wouldn't be reuinted with him of course until she heads south... but for right now, we don't need to concern ourselves with him, as he may not exist. Hmm... good thoughts! ETA, in light of all this, i think i'll call Tamyris 27 or so. |
|
|
|
Post by Gordis on Jun 15, 2009 9:36:45 GMT
Of course, it seems likely that out 5000 years from Elros, just about everybody with any Dúnadan blood is descended from him. If we assume Amandil was the same number of generations distant from Elros as Ar-Pharazon, then Malvegil is, I think, 41 generations removed from Elros. Queen Elizabeth II is only 39 generations removed from Charlemagne, and pretty much everybody in Europe today is descended from Charlemagne, as I understand it. So it seems rather likely that virtually the entire Dúnadan population of both Arnor and Gondor (as well as the whole of the Black Númenorean population in the south and in Angmar) is descended from Elros. That is quite true, as to European population, but maybe less applicable to ME. As far as I understand, from Tar-Ancalime to Ar-Pharazon pretty much everyone within the line of Elros was obliged to marry another descendant of Elros. So the proportion of Elven blood within the line remained practically stable till the Downfall: Ar-Pharazon had almost the same proportion of it as Tar-Ancalime. I am not sure, though, if the Lords of Andunie did the same thing, but likely yes, because their lifespan continued to remain very long, longer in fact than that of the Kings. See this article by Alcuin: I always use his excellent graphs to check things... www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decline%20of%20the%20Numenoreans.htmNow after the Downfall I don't think there were enough descendants of Elros left to continue to intermarry, so yes the European situation becomes applicable, but it is only about 14-15 generations from Elendil to Malvegil/Tarnendur... So, IMO, not every Dunedain would be descended from Elros by 1348. In Arnor there would be more of them, I think, because in the North nobody married "lesser Men", only the fellow Dunedain. |
|
|
|
Post by Voronwen on Jul 4, 2009 20:11:40 GMT
As far as I understand, from Tar-Ancalime to Ar-Pharazon pretty much everyone within the line of Elros was obliged to marry another descendant of Elros. So the proportion of Elven blood within the line remained practically stable till the Downfall: Ar-Pharazon had almost the same proportion of it as Tar-Ancalime. Yes, that makes sense. Yes, i would think that they did - if for no other reason than they would want to keep their marriages within the Faithful, too. Yes, and i think coming from "the South", Tamyris and Nimraen would be mixed somewhat, even if they had originally come from the minor land-holding classes. |
|
) 
And, i think i'm starting to get it. 
