Flight of Arvedui

[Duilin]

further - having read a bit more entmoot discussion relating to the Nazgûl, I think that a question has to be made whether Middle-earth is to be treated as a self-consistent world, or as a creation of Professor Tolkien. It seems to me that Tolkien himself always intended to treat the Nazgûl as agents of Sauron. They had no will of their own, he says (or has Gandalf or other "wise" characters say) on several occasions.

Unfortunately, though, in order to get Frodo safely to Rivendell, he has to make the Nazgûl act in rather weird ways. This allows one to make the case, based on the letter, but against the spirit, of Tolkien's words, that the Nazgûl are free agents (with that one thread there arguing that the Nazgûl were in fact working to help destroy the Ring, which seems clearly absurd to me, and is also clearly contradicted, I believe, by statements made by Tolkien in the letters - as, for instance, his statement of what would have happened at Mount Doom if not for Gollum.)

I don't think Tolkien ever intended us to see the Nazgûl as free agents after their initial enslavement to the Ring in the Second Age. But he wrote a narrative that leaves itself open to other possibilities, in part because of the complications inherent in the loss of the One Ring at the end of the Second Age. I think that, if Tolkien had ever been asked, for instance, "When did Sauron take the Nine back? What was the Nazgûls' relationship to Sauron in the period when they had their rings, and he did not have his?" he probably would have tried to construct a way for Sauron to still be their master, even though he doesn't have either their rings or the One.

But in the absence of such a rationalization by Tolkien, we're left with a situation where the explanation that they were, in fact, free of Sauron for much of the Third Age, is at least as consistent with the letter of the books as any other. There are some p arts of this construction that are worrisome - I don't like the idea of Sauron going to war with the Nazgûl in Morgul during the 30th century - there is absolutely nothing in Tolkien to suggest such an idea, nor, indeed, any hint of discord between the Nazgûl and Sauron after 2941, when he is in Mordor and the Nazgûl are in Morgul. A further point in this regard is that Gandalf knows at the Council of Elrond that Sauron has gathered all the nine and the remaining seven to himself. But he has had no direct contact with Sauron since 2851, when he revealed to the White Council that it was, indeed, Sauron at Dol Guldur, and that he was gathering the rings to himself. But, according to the Quest of Erebor, Gandalf had no idea that the Dwarf who gave him the map and key and was raving like a loon about his ring was Thráin, or that the ring was one of the seven - he only realized this in 2941, apparently. So he must have learned that Sauron was gathering rings some other way. If Sauron only took back the 9 in 2951, in Mordor, how would Gandalf have any way of knowing this?

So, anyway, I'm willing to contemplate the possibility of the Nazgûl being free for much of the Third Age, but not in the sense that I think this is how Tolkien intended the story to go, so much as that this theory fits the holes in the story Tolkien told as well as any other.

And it definitely makes for a more entertaining story here...

[Gordis]

duilin said:

I think your interpretation is very plausible, but not compelled by the evidence. You certainly have the best of the discussion - as far as I've read, no one else there has offered a compelling alternative explanation, and I'm not sure I can, either, although I'm hesitant to subscribe fully to the idea that he was a free agent.

Now I have also re-read the beginning of the thread and I feel I agree with CAB more than I did two years back. I believe it is very probable that Sauron has got the WK's Ring shortly after the end of Angmar - in 1975-76.

duilin said:

If you are right, though, the Witch King we see in LOTR is a sadly depleted version of the Witch King in his full glory in Angmar. The Nazgûl as independent actors certainly makes for better drama for the purposes of this story than them as thralls of Sauron. Thralls of Sauron make for rather dully story-telling, certainly.

You see I wouldn't recommend to extrapolate "no will of their own" idea to the earlier period. And even in 3018-19, the nazgul were certainly no robots. The parts of LOTR ("It was no orc-chieftain or brigand...etc.") speaking about the siege of Minas-Tirith lead us to think that it was the WK, not Sauron, who directed the siege. The nazgul also let the Hunt (UT) independantly - and Sauron was not happy with their decisions. Otherwise why threaten them?

Have you read the new Tolkien texts in the Reader's Companion, Duilin? There is one depicting the WK's thought and emotions at Weathertop. What strikes there is that the greatest concern for the WK was to preserve his own hide. No obsession with getting the Ring at all. He was afraid of the Barrow-Downs blade and of Sauron's anger if he returns to Mordor empty-handed, but nothing else. Very human emotions, really.

[Duilin]

Now I have also re-read the beginning of the thread and I feel I agree with CAB more than I did two years back. I believe it is very probable that Sauron has got the WK's Ring shortly after the end of Angmar - in 1975-76.

Yes, I like that better, as well.

You see I wouldn't recommend to extrapolate "no will of their own" idea to the earlier period. And even in 3018-19, the nazgul were certainly no robots. The parts of LOTR ("It was no orc-chieftain or brigand...etc.") speaking about the siege of Minas-Tirith lead us to think that it was the WK, not Sauron, who directed the siege. The nazgul also let the Hunt (UT) independantly - and Sauron was not happy with their decisions. Otherwise why threaten them?

Indeed. My sense of the Nazgûl lacking will of their own is not so much that they can't have their own thoughts, but that they cannot resist Sauron, or act against him. They can only act in ways which Sauron would approve. I believe that Tolkien says elsewhere that Orcs are creatures dependent on the will of their master, thus explaining why they all go crazy and commit suicide (or whatever it is they do) when Sauron is defeated. We see the behavior of Orcs much more clearly than that of the Nazgûl, and it seems clear that they see themselves as free actors. Shagrat and Gorbag's friendly conversation (before they fall out with each other) I've always found quite moving, in an orcish way - they just want the same thing everybody else wants, more or less - to be left in peace to run their own lives. This is actually much more difficult, I think, to reconcile with Tolkien's broader notion of the Orcs as disintegrating when Sauron dies than his idea of the Nazgûl.

Have you read the new Tolkien texts in the Reader's Companion, Duilin? There is one depicting the WK's thought and emotions at Weathertop. What strikes there is that the greatest concern for the WK was to preserve his own hide. No obsession with getting the Ring at all. He was afraid of the Barrow-Downs blade and of Sauron's anger if he returns to Mordor empty-handed, but nothing else. Very human emotions, really.

Hmm...very interesting. I've not had a chance to read that. I'll have to take a look at the Reader's Companion at some point (as well as at all the HOME volumes I've not had a chance to look through, e.g.)

[Duilin]

Some Tolkien evidence that the Witch King was acting at the behest of Dol Guldur (or, at least, that the Kings of Gondor and Arnor believed it was so by the 20th century of the third age):

It was in the reign of Araphant in the North and of Ondoher son of Calimehtar in the South that the two kingdoms again took counsel together after long silence and estrangement. For a t last they perceived that some single power and will was directing the assault from many quarters upon the survivors of Númenor. It was at that time that Arvedui heir of Araphant wedded Fíriel daughter of Ondoher (1940). But neither kingdom was able to send help to the other; for Angmar renewed its attack upon Arthedain at the same time as the Wainriders reappeared in great force.

Now, it may be that Sauron's control over the Witch King at this point is no greater than his control over the Wainriders - i.e., he is able to dominate him through fear and the like, but does not actually have ring-type control over him. But certainly this is canon to support a connection of some sort between Angmar and Dol Guldur.

[Arassuil]

admin said:

Gordis

You know I am fond of maps, so this question bothers me - how to trace the flight of Arvedui from Fornost on the map.

That is what we know:

QUOTE
App. A - LOTR:
In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended. He captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king. But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.
‘For a while Arvedui hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains, but he was driven at last by hunger to seek the help of the Lossoth, the Snowmen of Forochel. Some of these he found in camp by the seashore;

Now where exactly was this dwarven mine and where did the Lossoth live?

The problem here is that "the Mountains" are not named. Was Tolkien speaking of the far end of Ered Luin or of the Hithaeglir?

Some suppose, that the mine was in the north end of the Blue Mountains. Bit that doesn't add up, IMO.

North Downs are North and a bit to the NE from Fornost.

If we go North from there as the text says, we will never get to the Blue Mountains, instead we will hit the north-western end of the mountains of Angmar (which are a north-western portion of the Hithaeglir), west of Carn-Dum. I believe the mine was there.

You would say it is a LONG WAY from Forochel, but it is not so, as the bay labelled Forochel on most maps (like on my favourite Pauline Baynes's map) is only a small southern portion of the large bay of Forochel, that is shown only on a few maps. Look on the map here:



And on this map (Tolkien own, where he has drawn an arrow pointing at the larger part of Forochel)



So that is where I think the dwarven mine and the Lossoth's camp were - see red crosses.


Additional thoughts.

1. If Arvedui made it to the Blue Mountains, than the text contains a mistake: Arvedui had to go exactly North West, not North.(see green line)

2. If the Lossoth lived where the green cross is, then it is strange that they had been so familiar with the Witch-King's weather meddling and had feared him so. If they lived practically in Angmar itself (see the red cross), than it is quite understandable.

3. If Arvedui made it to the end of the Blue Mountains, he only had to go South following their western slopes and he would come unhindered to Mithlond. He was not cut from the Havens.
But if Arvedui ended up where I think he did, right west of Carn Dum and cut away from the West and the South, then there was no escape, if not by the Sea.

What do you think?

My thoughts on this is based on my simple way of interpreting the text in Appendix A where I read into it some realistic logistical and military thought:

"In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended. He captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king."

I always saw the armies of Carn Dum coming against Fornost mainly down the east side of the North Downs, with a smaller, screening force coming down the west side. They were unable to surround the city and the majority of the surviving Dunedain fled due west. The sons of the King were obviously military commanders, and likely kept a screening rearguard as the non-combatants moved as quickly as possible.

"But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses."

I always thought the King and his Royal Guardsmen, along with other soldiers who were the last fighting in Fornost, escaped northeastward into the North Downs. This hindered the all out pursuit by the army of Carn Dum of the Dunedain fleeing west, buying them time. Once the King and some of his men, all those remaining that could ride a horse, were finally driven out of the north downs, they fled due north to escape the pursuit of the enemy, then turned west to try and re-join the others in Mithlond. With them having to stay so far north in winter, they managed to stay on the flank of the army of Carn Dum undetected. The army of Carn Dum had to stop at the Ered Luin due to overextended supply lines, weather, resistance from the remnents of the Dunedain and the elves, and achievment of their objective of destroying the kingdom of Arthedain. I believe Carn Dum pursued west and kept watch knowing that they had failed to: A. Capture or kill the King or any of his sons. B: Capture any of the Palantiri. C. Destroy completely the Dunedain army.

"‘For a while Arvedui hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains, but he was driven at last by hunger to seek the help of the Lossoth, the Snowmen of Forochel. Some of these he found in camp by the seashore;"

After coming to the Ered Lun's northern reach, they "holed up" in a dwarf mine after unsuccessfully attempting to move south in stealth (finding it watched by outpost garrisons of Carn Dum's army), or west over the Ered Luin (blocked by tough terrain and weather). I believe they found the Lossoth near the shores of Forochel's southern bay.

That has always been my take, mainly because it makes the most military sense and 'fits' with what was written, but assuming some things that was not written. I have to do to make sense of the passage in all its parts (How did Carn Dum attach. How was Fornost taken, how did any Dunedain get out west unhindered, etc.). If you go literally only by what is written, then your "red line" theory of the King's movement is the only possible outcome. To do this, I would have to literally take only what is written on the attack and how Fornost was taken, which is it 'just happened' with no detail provided.

Thank you for allowing me to comment.

Edit: I guess you all have discussed this out among yourselves already.