Flight of Arvedui

[Witch-king of Angmar]

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Gordis

You know I am fond of maps, so this question bothers me - how to trace the flight of Arvedui from Fornost on the map.

That is what we know:


QUOTE
App. A - LOTR:
In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended. He captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king. But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.
‘For a while Arvedui hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains, but he was driven at last by hunger to seek the help of the Lossoth, the Snowmen of Forochel. Some of these he found in camp by the seashore;



Now where exactly was this dwarven mine and where did the Lossoth live?

The problem here is that "the Mountains" are not named. Was Tolkien speaking of the far end of Ered Luin or of the Hithaeglir?

Some suppose, that the mine was in the north end of the Blue Mountains. Bit that doesn't add up, IMO.

North Downs are North and a bit to the NE from Fornost.

If we go North from there as the text says, we will never get to the Blue Mountains, instead we will hit the north-western end of the mountains of Angmar (which are a north-western portion of the Hithaeglir), west of Carn-Dum. I believe the mine was there.

You would say it is a LONG WAY from Forochel, but it is not so, as the bay labelled Forochel on most maps (like on my favourite Pauline Baynes's map) is only a small southern portion of the large bay of Forochel, that is shown only on a few maps. Look on the map here:



And on this map (Tolkien own, where he has drawn an arrow pointing at the larger part of Forochel)



So that is where I think the dwarven mine and the Lossoth's camp were - see red crosses.


Additional thoughts.

1. If Arvedui made it to the Blue Mountains, than the text contains a mistake: Arvedui had to go exactly North West, not North.(see green line)

2. If the Lossoth lived where the green cross is, then it is strange that they had been so familiar with the Witch-King's weather meddling and had feared him so. If they lived practically in Angmar itself (see the red cross), than it is quite understandable.

3. If Arvedui made it to the end of the Blue Mountains, he only had to go South following their western slopes and he would come unhindered to Mithlond. He was not cut from the Havens.
But if Arvedui ended up where I think he did, right west of Carn Dum and cut away from the West and the South, then there was no escape, if not by the Sea.

What do you think?

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Alcuin

I think this is worth considerable thought.

The problems, as I see them, are these:
1. Had Arvedui fled due north, he would have been fleeing toward Angmar, not away from it. For instance, I cannot see the British Expeditionary Force moving parallel to the Wehrmacht front line and not toward Dunkirk; but in general, the retreat is described as “north” and not “west” or even “northwest,” which is technically the most nearly correct direction. Assuming that the king and his retainers were harried along the way, as seems likely, they would have been forced to move away from Carn Dûm and away from pursuit, I think. Finally, had they fled due north, they would likely have been within striking distance of forces allied with Angmar, if not patrols out from the capital; and we should not assume that Carn Dûm was the only settled town in the area. An argument might be presented that there were no settlements allied to Angmar that far north and west; but this must ignore the likelihood of orcs in that part of the world, and as you have referenced a map from Karen Wynn Fonstad, you are probably aware that she points out that these northern mountains appear to be a remnant of the Ered Engrin, the mountain barrier raised by Morgoth in the dark days of the First Age before the Sun arose in order to protect his domain, and these mountains were infested by orcs.
2. Mount Gundabad is an ancient Dwarvish city. I believe I recall that this has been pointed out in this forum before; if not I will make that observation now (PoME, p 301). If these are old, abandoned Dwarf mines, then they are likely ancient indeed: it seems the orcs had driven the Dwarves from the Ered Mithrin in the deeps of time: before the end of the First Age at any rate. It is easier for me to imagine that the abandoned mines are in the north of the Ered Luin, perhaps part of a network abandoned after the ruin of the ancient Dwarf city of Nogrod in the wreck of Beleriand during the War of Wrath.

I must agree that the Lossoth would be far more concerned about the Witch-king and more aware of his ability to influence the weather (are we certain that this is the Nazgûl lord and not Sauron himself? we already know that Sauron can influence the weather, as he did when the Company of the Ring attempted to cross the High Pass to Dimrill Dale; and it is unlikely that either Elvish or Dúnedain historians would realize that Sauron was present, if he were); but the Witch-king at this point had been in place for over 600 years, nearly 700, and the indigenous peoples should by this time have learned the source of sudden and unexpected discomfiture outside the whims of nature. The rumor and fear of the Witch-king was likely widespread by then.

That being said, it is easier to understand how the Elven ships would be crushed in a more deeply interior bay than in one closer to the open sea (even one close to the Grinding Ice, which should have remained in place even after Valinor was removed from the circles of the world); but 200 years ago, it was not uncommon for ice to pack the Labrador coast, and if I remember my history aright, Vitus Bering was trapped in sea ice in the strait that bears his name. In the days during the Little Ice Age, sea ice typically completely surrounded Iceland, for instance, and filled the Denmark Strait pretty solidly: a vessel unfortunate to be trapped there, or off the Iceland coast, would have been crushed, and many were. Accounts of such incidents might be the inspiration of Tolkien’s story of Arvedui drowning within sight of the coast along with the Elven sailors.

But Gordis’ proposal is still a good one, IMO, and should not be dismissed out of hand.

(Pardon the spelling tonight: I am on another computer.)

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

I'll say about the same as Alcuin, but a little shorter.

1. I had taken "north" as a general direction, not as a precise direction. Here in Chicago, if you asked someone where Alaska was, most people would say "north" - even though it's also quite far to the west. It has a northern association, I guess. And - maybe there's something more distinctive about moving north-and-south, as opposed to east-and-west(possibly...).

2. The Dwarves seemed to keep some sort of presence in the Ered Luin. I didn't think Thrain and Thorin were the first to go back that way. Besides - and old Dwarf mine near Carn Dum would probably have other occupants in 1974, wouldn't it? I think the high presence of Orcs would keep any mines there from being abandoned.

I also agree with Alcuin about Arvedui needing to keep some distance from Angmar. He might have initially intended to circle back around to Lindon - the long way - but was maybe cut off by pursuers from the attack on Fornost - and continually forced further north.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

CAB

I tend to agree with Gordis. This quote also comes from Appendix A:


QUOTE
They (the Lossoth) live mostly, inaccessible to their enemies, on the great Cape of Forochel that shuts off to the north-west the immense bay of that name; but they often camp on the south shores of the bay at the feet of the Mountains.



If I understand this quote correctly, for the Lossoth to get from where they “mostly” live to the Blue Mountains (not using boats), they would have to travel around the entire bay. It seems unlikely that they would do this since (aside from the greater distances, certainly a major factor) this would make them much more vulnerable to those who would attack them. Presumably much of the reason for them living on the Cape was to avoid this kind of vulnerability. Also, looking at Tolkien’s map, “the south shores of the bay at the feet of the Mountains” would seem to me to be better used for the south-east part of the bay than the south-west part.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Valandil

But CAB - that quote you give describes the Cape they inhabit as being on the northwest of the Bay of Forochel - just off the end of the Blue Mountains.

I think even up there, on the west end of the bay - they would be aware enough of the "long arm" of the Witch-King of Angmar.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

QUOTE (Valandil @ Jul 16 2006, 10:37 PM)
But CAB - that quote you give describes the Cape they inhabit as being on the northwest of the Bay of Forochel - just off the end of the Blue Mountains.




Oh, no, Val, the Great cape of Forochel is marked on several maps by Tolkien himself. It is this promontory that starts on the north-western shore of Forochel and stretches South. It is across the bay from the Blue Mountains.

[Witch-king of Angmar]

Gordis

Thank you for your replies, Alcuin, Val and CAB.

Sorry, guys, I still prefer my own idea .

Excellent quote, CAB, about the Lossoth normally living on the Cape. It is a long way from the Mountains of Angmar, but still not so far as from the Blue mountains. And anyway,to get to the Southern shore of the bay, the Lossoth still had to pass through Western Angmar, so they should be familiar with the Witch-King.

I don't think the Lossoth ever sailed across the bay. If they did, the sight of a ship wouldn't be so amazing for them. They wouldn't call it "a sea monster".

They could have crossed the frozen bay using their sledges, but it is unlikely that the very opening of the bay was frozen even in winter, so reaching the spot near the mountains of Angmar was more likely than the spot near the Blue mountains.


QUOTE
Alcuin: Had Arvedui fled due north, he would have been fleeing toward Angmar, not away from it.



QUOTE
Val: I also agree with Alcuin about Arvedui needing to keep some distance from Angmar. He might have initially intended to circle back around to Lindon - the long way - but was maybe cut off by pursuers from the attack on Fornost - and continually forced further north.


Please note, that the only quote we have from the Appendices says that
QUOTE
King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north

So while holding out in the North Downs, he lost the precious time, thus undoubtedly permitting the Angmarians to advance far west and north-west and cut him ENTIRELY from that direction, guarding the line of Lune and further to the Southern portion of the Icebay of Forochel.

Arvedui was likely surrounded on the Downs, and only able to flee "with some of his guards" in the least guarded direction - straight north - towards western Angmar. Of course Arvedui would have preferred to head west, or at least north-west, but he had no choice. They only "escaped by the swiftness of their horses".


QUOTE
Alcuin: Finally, had they fled due north, they would likely have been within striking distance of forces allied with Angmar, if not patrols out from the capital; and we should not assume that Carn D§ím was the only settled town in the area.

I don't know of any forces "allied" with Angmar, even Rhudaur had become part of Angmar by that time. As for the area being almost empty, I think almost everyone able to bear arms was taken by the WK to Arthedain.
Carn-Dum was not that near, and it is evident from the quote that the enemies lost Arvedui's trail. Only hunger was a problem in the dwarf mines, not the enemy. Perhaps they hardly expected the King to head to Angmar, much like Sauron didn't expect for the Ring to be brought to Mordor.

And the unlucky Witch-King still failed to capture a single Palantir , while Arvedui himself probably used his all the time to watch his surroundings. I will not be surprised if it is only via the Palantiri, that Cirdan learned where to look for Arvedui - the message was likely sent to Minas Tirith and then forwarded to the Havens by a messenger.



QUOTE
Val: The Dwarves seemed to keep some sort of presence in the Ered Luin. I didn't think Thrain and Thorin were the first to go back that way. Besides - and old Dwarf mine near Carn Dum would probably have other occupants in 1974, wouldn't it? I think the high presence of Orcs would keep any mines there from being abandoned.


I have no doubt that an abandoned dwarven mine could be found both in Ered Luin (the dwarven presence was always strong there) as well as in the Mountains of Angmar. The latter were not that far from Gundabad, the greatest Dwarven realm of old. I would only say, that a mine in Angmar mountains was more likely to be abandoned by the dwarves, than a mine in the Blue mountains. Arvedui could have expected to find an active dwarf mine in the Blue Mountains, which would be his salvation.


QUOTE
Alcuin: Mount Gundabad is an ancient Dwarvish city. I believe I recall that this has been pointed out in this forum before; if not I will make that observation now (PoME, p 301). If these are old, abandoned Dwarf mines, then they are likely ancient indeed: it seems the orcs had driven the Dwarves from the Ered Mithrin in the deeps of time: before the end of the First Age at any rate.

Well the mines are called "old" in the quote. As for Gundabad, it was taken by orcs in the middle of the SECOND age.


QUOTE
HOME 12: The Second Age had reached only the middle of its course (c. Second Age 1695) when he (Sauron) invaded Eriador and destroyed Eregion, a small realm established by the Eldar migrating from the ruin of Beleriand that had formed an alliance also with the Longbeards of Moria. This marked the end of the Alliance of the Longbeards with Men of
the North. For though Moria remained impregnable for many centuries, the Orks reinforced and commanded by servants of Sauron invaded the mountains again. Gundabad was re-taken, the Ered Mithrin infested and the communication between Moria and the Iron Hills for a time cut off.




QUOTE
Alcuin: It is easier for me to imagine that the abandoned mines are in the north of the Ered Luin, perhaps part of a network abandoned after the ruin of the ancient Dwarf city of Nogrod in the wreck of Beleriand during the War of Wrath.

Nogrod mines were as ancient as Gundabad ones, why do you prefer ones to the others?

I don't think that the Angmar forces ever crossed the line of the Lune:

QUOTE
(The Witch-King) captured Fornost, and drove most of the remaining D¨²nedain over the Lune; among them were the sons of the king.



If so, how could they prevent Arvedui from descending to Lindon following the west bank of this river? Why would he still head north from the sources of the Lune, instead of heading straight south, once he crossed the river?

As for the Angmarian orcs, they had the choice of all the north Misty Mountains to settle - from Rivendell and up. Why would they choose to stay so far north? They had to eat something, and in such a desolate country as that of the Lossoth, it was much more difficult to find food than at Gundabad. And note that the orcs were much depleted in 1409 war, and all the orcs available by 1975 were likely enrolled by the Witch-King and sent to Fornost and to Arthedain. Angmar in 1974-75 might have been almost empty.


QUOTE
Alcuin: That being said, it is easier to understand how the Elven ships would be crushed in a more deeply interior bay than in one closer to the open sea (even one close to the Grinding Ice, which should have remained in place even after Valinor was removed from the circles of the world);


By my personal experience, the "deeply interior" seas in the North are completely frozen the whole winter, while more open parts have ice packed along the shore. The place I have "chosen" for the Lossoth's camp is on the shore facing North, so the north wind would crash any vessel against this packed ice.


QUOTE
Alcuin: I must agree that the Lossoth would be far more concerned about the Witch-king and more aware of his ability to influence the weather (are we certain that this is the Nazg§íl lord and not Sauron himself? we already know that Sauron can influence the weather, as he did when the Company of the Ring attempted to cross the High Pass to Dimrill Dale; and it is unlikely that either Elvish or D§ìnedain historians would realize that Sauron was present, if he were);


There is no evidence that Sauron had anything to do with Angmar at all. For all we know, there might have been no connection between Dol-Guldur and Carn-Dum whatsoever.

As for the WK, the native population firmly believed him to be able to influence the weather, but whether he could really do it, or was just blamed for about everything bad that happened , remains a question.

Suppose this storm that drowned Arvedui was indeed the WK's doing. How would he know where the King was? - he had no Palantir. Perhaps he had reports of an Elvish ship sent North? But that meant he had to spy the coast or have spies in Mithlond.
Then again, why send snow and wind to the spot where Arvedui presumably was? That endangered the Palantiri, and it really proved fatal - the WK lost both stones. Why not send a couple thousand orcs to capture the King, or not come there personally - the prize was big enough, wasn't it?

[Duilin]

There is no evidence that Sauron had anything to do with Angmar at all. For all we know, there might have been no connection between Dol-Guldur and Carn-Dum whatsoever.

But surely the implication of everything Tolkien wrote on the Nazgûl is that they no longer had any will of their own, but are slaves to the will of their master. This is not directly stated, perhaps, but it is certainly strongly implied. Let me see if I can dig up some quotes. And it's surely no coincidence that the Witch King appears in Angmar only shortly after Sauron re-embodies in Dol Guldur.

I do wonder, though, how Sauron exerted his control over the Nazgûl after his loss of the One Ring, but before he gathered the Nine back to himself. Did he simply control them, whether he had the ring or not? If so, why gather their rings back to himself at all? The only reason to do so would be to be able to give them out and create new wraiths, but clearly Sauron does not feel that he can do this so long as he lacks the One Ring. If he can't control them without holding their rings himself, how was he able to get them to give him their rings? This is the kind of thing Tolkien never explained very clearly. I suppose the idea that the Nazgûl still had at least some will of their own is not clearly negated by the text, but I think the idea that Sauron had nothing to do with Angmar is rather to diminish Sauron's role in the Third Age, given that, until 2951, all Sauron apparently did was to chill out in Dol Guldur and make the forest kind of nasty. The destruction of Arnor was probably the greatest work of evil in the Third Age. I find the idea that Sauron had nothing to do with it hard to accept.

I would agree, though, that on the specific issue of the weather, the implication is that this was under the Witch King's direct control, not Sauron's.

On the initial question of which mountains Arvedui fled to, I don't think there's anything in the text to say conclusively one way or the other. The Misty Mountains' proximity to Angmar makes me slightly favor the Blue Mountains, but really either fits the text. This is the kind of thing which might be resolved by looking at Peoples of Middle Earth - Tolkien may have been more explicit in an earlier draft. But I don't have it, so I can't do so.

[Gordis]

Duilin,
There was a long thread on the Entmoot forum (we all came from there) about the question of Sauron and the nazgul in the Third Age and when and how he got their rings. I shall post a link.

www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12074

I suggest you read it - it will help you understand the Sauron-nazgul relationship implied in this game.

[Duilin]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting discussion, although I've not had a chance to read through all of it. I think your interpretation is very plausible, but not compelled by the evidence. You certainly have the best of the discussion - as far as I've read, no one else there has offered a compelling alternative explanation, and I'm not sure I can, either, although I'm hesitant to subscribe fully to the idea that he was a free agent.

If you are right, though, the Witch King we see in LOTR is a sadly depleted version of the Witch King in his full glory in Angmar. The Nazgûl as independent actors certainly makes for better drama for the purposes of this story than them as thralls of Sauron. Thralls of Sauron make for rather dully story-telling, certainly.